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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Ring Modulator--Tell Us When You Use It.
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morbius



Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 95
Location: Great Smoky Mountains - USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elhardt wrote:
>>Heh... I sold my RM... never used it in the modular, and could use the space for stuff I do use.
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~Morbius~ <<


What? You don't have room for a little RM module in your huge synth?

A ring mod is useful for all kinds of things. Running a couple of oscs that are tuned apart by a natural harmonic gets you some new waveforms that aren't metalic but provide new waveforms to use for musical purposes. An RM can work well for slightly detuned oscs, by giving you a more unstable sound which can be interesting. My MOTM Train Passing By demo, uses RM along with other stuff for all kinds of mechanical chaotic sounds, plus train bell. I use an RM in my different cymbal and hi-hat sounds along with FM. And or course it is useful for all kinds of other metalic sounds. The RM is a necessary module, and without one, a synth just becomes more limited.

-Elhardt



I could maybe make room (now), but the fact is, the RM isn't all that important to me. I could have an RM on the shelf... when I need it, swap it out for a module that I'm not using at the moment. And yeah, I understand what you are saying above. But at the time, I was running out of space and had already moved it to the back. I had bought another module that I really had more immediate uses for, and decided to sell the RM and use the money for something I would be using- a lot. (to coin a phrase- the dust told the story) Wink I just wasn't using the RM much at all.

Initially, when I first got my modular, I did use the RM for things like you mentioned... experimenting, etc. But at the time I made the decision, I looked back and noted, that while an RM is good for many things, I wasn't needing it for what I was doing at the time, and heck- I can always buy another. It's not like there's a shortage of them.

At the same time (because of space) I also got rid of the clipper/rectifier... for the same reason... I needed the space for something else I was putting together. After I expanded my system, and bought another 44-cabinet and the two portable cabinets, I had room again. I bought another clipper, but not another RM. The fact is, I just rarely used it, and it just wasn't needed at the time... nor, do I really particularly want another one at the moment. I know that it's one of the most basic modules of a synth, but the projects I was doing at that time did not require it, and the real estate was needed for other stuff. I also question why I would want to spend money on something that I already know I don't use enough to buy another one.

I buy modules based on what my needs are for what I am doing, not because I'm concerned that others may think it's limited. And so far, I haven't sat back and said "Ya know... what I need for this is a ring modulator". That's not to say that I won't ever buy or build one... but now, I am just about out of space again. I have room for another EG (which I do need), and another clipper (which I could do without, but I have specific patches in mind which require two clippers)(and have ordered both an EG & 2nd clipper)... and room for the two Zeroscillators which I have ordered... then, I'm maxed-out... again. I'm even having to replace one of my QPS-1 power supplies with a QPS-3 power supply to handle the added needs of the two Zeroscillators. But somehow, I'm thinking that these two Zeroscillators may just eliminate the need for a RM... yes?... no?... maybe?... heh- Honestly, I don't know that... but I will find out.

I know of many applications where the RM does some kewel things in the CV department... esp. for experimenting. And the other primary uses would be in the audio department. As far as the modular goes... experimental patches are sometimes fun... a sideline... a break from the normal for me, but I don't particularly enjoy doing experimental as a genre, although I sometimes enjoy hearing what others do. If I did, I might look at a Buchla Wink .... or maybe not.

But- in the audio realm, if I need metallic/bell/gong sounds, there are techniques to simulate those kinds of sounds (with + or - results)... but if those aren't good enough, then I'll just use one of my other synths to get the sound I need. I'm not a modular purist.

In the future, when I decide it's time for another cabinet, I may go ahead and get another RM... just so I have one. My methods and reasoning may sound crazy to you. Some might agree with my reasoning, and surely others won't. But, that's what makes the world go 'round (not gravity and inertia). Wink And ultimately, I am the one who has to live with my decissions and creations, be they good or bad. Maybe I'll score a point with someone because if nothing else, at least I don't spend good money for something I know that I don't really need... yes? - no? Oh well... what are points good for anyway?

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mosc
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbius wrote:
My methods and reasoning may sound crazy to you.

In this community we share a lot of values; the love of electronic sounds, creation of music for the joy of it, respect for each other, experimentation, etc. There is no requirement for sanity. Wink

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elhardt



Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 73
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbius wrote:
>>My methods and reasoning may sound crazy to you.<<

Not crazy. But I picked your post to answer the person who started the thread about what an RM is good for, while at the same time giving you a bit of a hard time for selling yours. I guess my view of a modular is that it's a piece of gear capable of any sound you can imagine provided you have the full compliment of modules. I too have modules I rarely use, but I hang on to them for the rare times it may be just exactly what I need. But as you've pointed out, you may have that functionality in another synth. When I bought my first modular (Doepfer) it was my first RM too. None of my vintage synths or VA synths had one built in at the time. Now I have them in many things including multi-effects units.

BTW, I saw your posts about rap on the dotcom board. I agree with you 100%. I wish I would have seen the thread earlier before it was ended, as I have plenty to say on the subject.

Founder of W.A.R. (Whites Against Rappers)

-Elhardt
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morbius



Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 95
Location: Great Smoky Mountains - USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ken- Can I join W.A.R.? A-hem.... ummm.... what I meant, is... where can I speak to you privately RAP

That thread caused me more trouble, even though it was something like 13-1 in favor for all of the people who wrote me privately. Still, I decided to take a sabbatical from the group for a while... breaking it only to pop-in today to wish Markk Roberts a Happy Birthday, even though he quite because of those.... those.... those..... a-hem- people on the group (an he's moving).
Anyway a warm HAPPY BIRTHDAY to MARKK happy birthday

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Mohoyoho



Joined: Dec 03, 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We're really getting off the topic of this thread. I'd rather we stay on the topic of Ring Modulators.
Thanks for you cooperation.

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elhardt



Joined: May 14, 2005
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

>>We're really getting off the topic of this thread. I'd rather we stay on the topic of Ring Modulators. Thanks for you cooperation.<<

You're right. Things tend to drift. This thread kind of seemed over with anyway though. Since Morbius got my email address, I'm going to try to delete my last post so spammers don't get ahold of it. Let's see if I can do so.

-Elhardt

[editor's note: I removed the post for you. --mosc]
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softfreak



Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 149
Location: zürich switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

to bring the thread back to live I would like to let you hear
how I use my ringmod at the moment. over the past months
I have experimented a lot with different settings,
the ringmod has become one of my
favorite soundmachines... getting away from the "classic"
ringmod sounds ...

for the following 2 pieces I used a
Vermona ringmodulator rm-1,
an MFB filterbox,
the internal carrier of the ringmod
was controlled via CV by a FutureRetro Mobius
and simultaniousely by the internal LFO wich was mutilated
by me.

http://www.sendling.ch/music/tracks/RINGMOD%20FRENZY%20cut1.MP3

http://www.sendling.ch/music/tracks/RINGMOD%20FRENZY%20cut2.MP3
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool! I love the second one.
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Mark Mahoney
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softfreak



Joined: Feb 12, 2006
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Location: zürich switzerland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thank you. Very Happy

I would really love to hear what others do with their
ringmodulators...
anyone ???
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Last night I inserted my Moogerfooger Ring Mod into the send/return of my Voyager. I then sync'd the Ion to my Voyager via midi. I sent a mono audio out of the Ion to the carrier in of the Ring Mod. It was quite nice. I had these evolving Ion pads as the carrier, and they were making some sweet chaos with the Voyager via the ring mod. The more I use the Ring Mod the more I like it.
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Rob



Joined: Mar 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
We should note that the cheap ring modulators made out of a couple of transformers and a diode ring (hence the name ring modular) are unfortunately not DC coupled.


That is not entirely true, on a ringmodulator made with two transformers and four diodes the current that can be run through the diodes can be a fixed current caused by a fixed DC voltage. This way it can be used as a VCA.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

The ringmodulator is a passive circuit made with two (audio) transformers and four diodes. There are three ground connections and three signal connections. Because it is a passive circuit any signal connection can be used as either an input or an output, as long as signal impedances match. The circuit becomes useful if two connections are used as inputs, accepting alternating currents, and one connection is used as an output connected to a reasonably high input impedance amplifier.
Note that if connection A and B are used as input it can be seen that input B can accept a DC signal. (The coils on connections A and C will block DC signals.) If a signal is connected to only B the currents in the transformer coils will cancel each other out and no signal will be present from the coils connected to A and C. But if additionally an alternating current is connected to connection A it will bring the currents through the diodes out of balance and the product of the A and B signal will be present on connection C. (Note that A and C can be swapped.) A fixed DC current fed into B will bring the currents through two of the diodes permanently out of balance and the signal from A will be 'multiplied' by the fixed B current and then passed on to C.

Germanium diodes must be used, as these can be used with much smaller signal levels than silicium diodes. Germanium diodes have a specific soft saturation characteristic, causing lots of nicely soft odd harmonic distortion. Meaning that the produced frequencies would not only be the sum and difference frequencies of the input frequencies, but also lots of sums and differences of the odd harmonics of the input frequencies and the odd harmonics of all the generated products. Germanium diodes are lousy rectifiers, but great soft saturation distortion devices.

Well, this drawing is from my memory from wááy back, so correct me if I made a mistake. I used to make such circuits in the time of germanium transistor radios, as when using the output transformers used in such radios in the drawn circuit, two transistor radios could be directly connected to A and C, and B could be fed into an amplifier input. This was fun when tuning one radio to a voice program and the other radio to a music program, or experiment with shortwave static on classical music or so. I remember this was very exiting when I was a 13/14 years old and secretly listening to the results at night, while I was supposed to be sleeping. Especially in the summer the shortwave static was quite nice when trying to tune to Ljubljana or Vladivostok or so. Such experiments definitely helped to grow my interest in electronic sounds. Wink

And here is a basic schematic for a simple and cheap, but very effective analog germanium diode saturation circuit that can beef up your digital ringmodulator with lots of nice and soft odd harmonic distortion:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Resistors are dimensioned for AA119 diodes, other germanium diodes will probably need different values. This little circuit is also great on your kick drums. Very Happy

These days I like to use ringmodulation on chords tuned in a just ration, e.g. 3:4:5. By softly applying FM modulation with a relatively high pitch on a sinewave that modulates the chord (or percussive sounds) a very nice and soft quantisation effect can be created. Mostly it is best to mix only a bit of the ringmodulated sound to the dry sound, just to get a subtly unnerving accent.

Have fun,
/Rob
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've never had any luck getting a couple of transformers and a diode ring to act as a VCA. Maybe I never tried the right configuration. dunno

I guess I'm biased to avoid mixing DC with transformers; I am somewhat tired of smoke - at least the smoke from burning circuits. Wink

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Rob



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I've never had any luck getting a couple of transformers and a diode ring to act as a VCA. Maybe I never tried the right configuration. dunno

I guess I'm biased to avoid mixing DC with transformers; I am somewhat tired of smoke - at least the smoke from burning circuits. Wink


Very Happy Small currents won't burn your house down...

Anyway, we're talking vintage technology here. In fact, at the WDR studio's in Köln (Germany) where Stockhausen worked in the fifties it was not allowed for a composer to touch any equipment, only a specially appointed composer-assistent was allowed to. The reason was that the management feared for liability issues when an established composer should happen to be executed on their premises. This is a true fact that I heard from Stockhausen's assistent at that time himself (König).

/Rob
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softfreak



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

some more of my ringmoduation investigation.

on this I used an vermona rm-1 ringmod and
an MFB filterbox.

my sweet bird : http://www.sendling.ch/music/projects.html
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice track, Softfreak. I like it. Smile
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Love the tones!
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Gordon Charlton



Joined: Oct 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mohoyoho wrote:
Vocals! That's an interesting use.


Vocals + 30Hz sine-wave = Dalek!

(I've seen various frequencies attributed to the dalek voice, but 30Hz is the one specified most often.)

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen. Modulate! Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen. Modulate! Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen. Modulate!
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davep



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One of my favorite Ring Mod techniques, which I learned when using the Nord Modular but have since discovered works great on an all-analog modular as well:

Rather than using static waveforms (like a simple sawtooth, sine, or whatever) as the inputs to the Ring Mod, do something to each of the input waveforms to give it some timbral motion. Examples would be things like a sawtooth wave through a swept phaser, a sine osc with hard sync sweep or FM sweep, a triangle osc through a swept wavewrapper, or a square wave with slow pulse width modulation. The two input waveforms can be the same kind of wave with the same kind of processing, or two completely different sounds. I think it works best when the motion of the two audio sources is controlled by two independent sweeps (two LFOs running at different rates, one controlling each audio osc).

Now tune the two audio sources to different pitches at some harmonic ratio, like a fifth, a major sixth, on octave + major 3rd. The result of all this is that you get some amazing and unpredictable sounds that slowly change over time, like wavetable synths.

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Patchmouse



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:00 am    Post subject: RM is an essential tool
Subject description: Could I live without a RM ? no !
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Hi all, I use my Ring Modulators at some point during every session, in my Modular and my VA's. I always use them for processing piano and tuned percussion, for which I find them indispensable. From a very basic "thickening" of the sound, on to a sort of "distressed" more natural sound, through to the full-on John Cage prepared piano type sounds, which I have always been in love with, ad a bit of Lexicon reverb and its instant heaven !

Take care,

Tony.
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Two great ideas. Thanks Dave and Patchmouse.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gordon Charlton wrote:
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen. Modulate! Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen. Modulate! Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen. Modulate!


Oh, I love that emoticon. How have gone so long without it?

I've added it to the electro-music.com emoticon set. Thanks... Very Happy

dalek dalek dalek dalek dalek dalek dalek dalek

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elhardt



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So mohoyoho wants to know when I use my ring modulator. Okay, here is the info.

Oct 16, 4:03 to 5:36 PM
Oct 14, 11:11 to 11:13 PM
Oct 3, 2:56 to 6:30 PM
Sept 28, 9:12 to 9:16 PM and 2:42 to 2:56 AM

Also plan to use it tomorrow Oct 18 for probably 15 minutes.

-Elhardt
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Finally somebody answered my question!
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