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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Ring Modulator--Tell Us When You Use It.
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:16 am    Post subject: Ring Modulator--Tell Us When You Use It. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The ring modulator is certainly an interesting module. I have the Moogerfooger Ring Mod pedal as well as having RM circuits on some of my VA synths. I love the way the Moog pedal can create tremelo on the low settings. On the faster settings it really starts to come up with that "ringing" sound. And ofcourse that pedal has its own LFO and some great CV in and outs which make it an indepensible tool. However, the VAs (Q, Ion, Microwave) ring mods don't seem as musical, and I find it hard to come up with a use for them.

So I thought I would start this thread to find out how and when people in this community use ther RMs. I'm hoping to become inspired to experiment more with those digital Ring Mods.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I use them mostly for processing live instruments. Typically use a sine wave on an oscillator that sweeps from subaudio to like 10 KHZ. When used with a sine wave the RM will generate two copies of the input, one shifted up by the frequency of the oscillator and one shifted down. These are the classic sum and difference tone or the heterodynes. When you use other waveforums, the results are more complex, but the math is the same - just you get the sum and difference for every harmonic in the oscillator.

The RM works great for guitars because it can give you great gongs. It's good to use in conjunction with a low-pass filter sometimes.

Lately, we have been using the RM with a Theremin. This is a wonderful combination. That's kinda neat because the Theremin is really built with two ring modulators. The tone you hear in a Theremin is actually the difference frequency between two very high frequency oscillators.

Here's some music made with the RM on guitar and Theremin.

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-8038.html

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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I didn't realize the Theremin was two RMs. Michael and I have been experimenting with his Etherwave. He likes putting it through a Low Pass Filter and giving it some delay. I like the sound of the Theremin and RM.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: Ring Modulator--Tell Us When You Use It. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mohoyoho wrote:
<snip>
However, the VAs (Q, Ion, Microwave) ring mods don't seem as musical, and I find it hard to come up with a use for them.
<snip>


I know what you mean. I was always dissatisfied with digital ringmodulation and always presumed that digital impurities (aliasing) were the cause. Through experimentation and listening sessions with analogue RM, I discovered however that the opposite is the case: the problem with digital RM is that it is too pure. It doesn't produce as many harmonic sidebands.

If you implement subtle modulator CV bleedthrough and odd harmonic distortion on a digital RM, it instantly jumps to life. I use the Clavia G2, where stuff like this is simple to do, but you can do this on almost any VA.
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thapoke



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ive set up a patch on my micro modular (which Ive mainly used on my bass guitar) which has an osc tracking the pitch of the input signal and the osc and input going into the ring mod.

This is realy useful for making the ring mod sounds less dissonant and more controlable for in tune sounds (if thats what Im looking for at the time- I quite like the horrible sounds of it as well). And at low frequencies it makes a great tremolo that varies speed depending on the pitch of the input.

Sounds pretty good on vocals as well , depending on your accent (Glasgow accent doesnt work) kind of like sounds on Coil records.
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Vocals! That's an interesting use.
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thapoke wrote:
Ive set up a patch on my micro modular


You could post the patch, if you want to, maybe somewhere in the NM1 section and then add a link to it from this thread.

Rob Hordijk made an interesting G2 example (along tim's lines)
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One thing I like using a ring modulator for is processing CV's.

Obviously, the RM must be DC coupled. It works rather like an automated 'attenuvertor' or bipolar attenuator. For example running a sawtooth LFO into the carrier and running a much slower sine LFO into the modulator will result in an inverted sawtooth at the output when the sine LFO is at its most negative voltage. As the sine approaches zero volts, the amplitude of the inverted sawtooth grows less. At the zero crossing of the sine wave LFO, the output is 0. Once the sine wave LFO starts moving positive from zero volts, the sawtooth amplitude again starts to rise on the output - only now it's not inverted.

It's a neat effect when driving a filter or VCO from the RM output. Of course, LFO's aren't the only CV source that can be processed Smile

Cheers,
Scott
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great tip. Thanks.
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been getting into my Moog MF 104 Ring Modulator quite a bit recently. I've been using it quite a bit with my Voyager and using the Filter EG's CV to modulate the frequency. I love the way the EG modulates; it's much more interesting than a LFO. You can insert the FX before the filters. It's quite a powerful sound tool. Much better and responsive than the digital ones on my Ion and Waldorf Q.

I've enjoyed and appreciate the above responses. Keep them coming in.
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ndkent



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As for things to do, controlling the pitch of 2 oscs, one with the x and one with the y axis of a joystick and feeding them into a ringmod makes some dramatic sounds.

I've done this with 2 theremin controllers producing a CV output for similar results, though in that case you'd need some way of adjusting amplitude (like a footpedal) or maybe control the amplitude with Theremin CV and a VCA and use a manual VCO for the osc not controlled by the Theremin.

I don't know the exact tech info but I'm pretty sure you could argue that while a theremin uses a similar principle it's not exactly or just a ring modulation process.

nicholas d. kent
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ndkent wrote:
I don't know the exact tech info but I'm pretty sure you could argue that while a theremin uses a similar principle it's not exactly or just a ring modulation process.


Quite right, I was just being a wise guy nerd when I mentioned that. Virtually every radio receiver uses balanced modulator circuits for signal detection too, but we don't call them ring modulators.

Scott mentioned a few of the neat things you can do with DC coupled ring modulators. We should note that the cheap ring modulators made out of a couple of transformers and a diode ring (hence the name ring modular) are unfortunately not DC coupled.

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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So THAT's why they call it a ring modulator! I always thought it was because they could make bell-like tones. Shows my ignorance.
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deknow



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...if i had to guess, i would say that is the most common misconception in electronic music Smile

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Four quadrant multiplier is another name for the same thing, just referring to both x and y working for positive and negative values.
If you feed two sines in of say 500 and 120 Hz, you get two sines out at 620 and 380 Hz, the sum and difference. Limiting one or both of the inputs to unipolar just adds one or both the original frequencies to the output, which gives a more complex tone.
I have always thought ring modulators should in theory, sound more interesting than they actually do. Confused
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: DC-Coupled "Ring Modulator" Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Something to play with:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/11935/11935.html

Very close to a ring mod, with a couple mods. But, it is DC-coupled.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's another use of the ring modulator. I thought of this last night while watching the Super Bowl. Not that I invented it, I just thought of it, remembered it that is. This may give you an idea of how exciting the game was. The most boring part was The Rolling Stones wankeling through I Can't Get Not Satisfaction. I was thinking what a great song that was in 1965, but shit this is 2006! (Stevie Wonder was pretty good at the opening, however).

Anyhow, while bozos like those guys were writing hit records like that and rolling in money, drugs and women, some of us were playing with ring modulators. Here's the use of them I remembered:

Plug one signal into both of the inputs. It will give you a sort of frequency doubler with the harmonics messed up. Maybe it won't get you satisfaction, but it's something to try and it won't be as boring as the Rolling Stones.

I remember thinking in 1972 that rock 'n roll was dead. Well I was wrong. It was dead for me, but most of the world kept on rockin. Last night, The Stones killed rock 'n roll for good.
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deknow



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...the saxophone player for stevie (michael philips) was using the new akai ewi 4000 (there was chatter about this on the windcontroller yahoogroup). i did see him with it, but i didn't hear anything specific, he was also playing an actual saxophone.

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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll try that Howard. That sounds interesting.
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softfreak



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I love the sound when
two guitarists play their
instruments simultaniously
through a ringmod.

the one I use :
Vermona rm-1.
I love it !
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

softfreak wrote:
I love the sound when
two guitarists play their
instruments simultaniously
through a ringmod.


Do you maybe have a sound example somewhere ?

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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, that sounds pretty interesing.
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morbius



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Heh... I sold my RM... never used it in the modular, and could use the space for stuff I do use.
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softfreak



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

Do you maybe have a sound example somewhere ?


nope.
but if everything works out fine
I will record some guitar/ringmod sounds in my next project.
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elhardt



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

>>Heh... I sold my RM... never used it in the modular, and could use the space for stuff I do use.
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What? You don't have room for a little RM module in your huge synth?

A ring mod is useful for all kinds of things. Running a couple of oscs that are tuned apart by a natural harmonic gets you some new waveforms that aren't metalic but provide new waveforms to use for musical purposes. An RM can work well for slightly detuned oscs, by giving you a more unstable sound which can be interesting. My MOTM Train Passing By demo, uses RM along with other stuff for all kinds of mechanical chaotic sounds, plus train bell. I use an RM in my different cymbal and hi-hat sounds along with FM. And or course it is useful for all kinds of other metalic sounds. The RM is a necessary module, and without one, a synth just becomes more limited.

-Elhardt
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