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 Forum index » Reviews, Editorials and Commentary » Commentary and Editorials
"Sandborne," Arabs, and the Status Quo
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Saudi Arabia is just .. a very small part of the arabic world.

Spain was once occupied by arabs. During that period culture, science and art thrived. The arab world has had a great influence on Europe. Islamic fundamentalism is hardly more stimulating than christian fundamentalism, and I guess it is wrong to claim that how we perceive Saudi Arabia to be like is how the rest of the arab world is like. but please... where are all our arab members? Hello?


When it comes to acostic instruments, I can hardly see any real difference between those and electronic instruments when it comes to spirituality and whatnot. Of course there are some incredibly stupid electronic instruments around, but man.. there are some really awful guitars too.

Hmm.. inherent sound qualities versus compositional structures? I am not sure about that one. I find the sound of .. like an Octave Instruments CAT 2, plugged into a nice PA to be incredibly powerful.

But then again I look at electronic instruments as just merely instruments.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rebellion? It depends on which roots you feel you have I guess. The avantgarde movement in Europe in the early 20th century was a rebellion. We know that in the world of music, just doing something different might be interpreted as a rebellion. I guess "we" won, because modern music has in many ways adopted absoluteley every nasty feature of the avantgarde music. Just look at how the film industry uses soundtracks. It is not that farfetched imagining Bruce Willis killing eskimo terrorists with the music of Arnold Schoenberg merrily playing along in Die Hard 5.
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, my thinking on this is a bit more holistic than that, and specifically concerning the contrast between the cultures in their current state. Perhaps by investigating the aspects of this contrast as it relates to the music we practice and the associated culture, we can understand the situation better. After all, be it politics or economics or culture or history or whatever, the one forte of ours is music.

Cyx

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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Rock, whatever that is.. is probably dead.. but this is a creature that gets redfined and reawakens in another form every 15 minutes. I read an article last week which discussed if ... well.. we.. us.. the stuff we are doing.. is rock reinventing avantgardism...

Rock will not be dead as long as the industry will keep it alive. By now that music has been digested by the "system" and it's part of it.

When you say: us I wonder what you mean Very Happy

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beat amateur



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: "Sandborne," Arabs, and the Status Quo Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cyxeris wrote:

why does there seem to be a relative absence of Arabic and Middle Eastern electronic music, or even electronic Islamic music? And by this, I do not mean influenced music, but, rather, the artists themselves. Is it a cultural thing? Is it an economic thing? A religious thing?
Cyx


Very interesting issues in this post and the replies.

A Muslim friend and collaborator of mine (Pakistani, not Arabic) shared something very interesting with me. From what I remember of our conversation, music in fundamentalist Islam has no place except for the singing of the Koran. Not even accompaniment!? Arabic music is obviously still being made by people who don't hold fundamentalist points of view, but it would seem to not be terribly accepted in public for religious reasons.

Kinda like smoking pot in Canada! Razz You can do it, even on the streets in some (or all) major cities, but the average person isn't terribly impressed when they see you burnin' that green.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The current muslim fundamentalist movement sees music as something evil. This is a pretty new idea though. The arab culture has been rich in its musical traditions. But then... I guess it is a bit wrong stating that the arab culture.. which is old and wonderful, by definition is muslim. We have also seen the same denial of music in certain fundamentalist christian sects.
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beat amateur



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cyxeris wrote:
I wonder how much of a role rebellion and the rejection of the status quo play in the proliferation of our movement. Would it be safe to say that our movement is, at least in part, the rejection of pop music and rock and roll, the dominating genres of the latter 20th century? After all, the sensibilities are very different between the two
Cyx

Interesting conundrum since I identify as part of the 'electronic scene' but consider myself to write for the most part popular music. Does that mean I'm not part of the movement or I'm not writing popular music? And if electronic music is about rejecting the status quo...well, isn't that an old idea even for us younguns (jazz, rock, punk, etc.)?


Cyxeris wrote:
but I would not say that the general sensibilities of electronic music harken back to earlier times. I see a unique consciousness amongst people working in our field, at most levels. Sure, rock is still big, but I would venture to say that its age is over, or has, at least, run its course.
Cyx

More interesting points for discussion. In an academic sense what we're creating as electronic artists is inherently influenced by music dating back possibly to the ancient Greeks (who may have been early adherents to the modes/scales we use today), if only for the fact that we grew up listening to 'western' music. I also imagine several people in this forum are very aware of using what has been discovered/explored about music in the past, dating back hundreds of years even, to write music.

Is rock dead? Can't say that I'm the biggest fan to begin with. Give me Kraftwerk over Creed any day!!! Razz Thievery Corporation is a given, of course...
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beat amateur



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
The current muslim fundamentalist movement sees music as something evil. This is a pretty new idea though. The arab culture has been rich in its musical traditions. But then... I guess it is a bit wrong stating that the arab culture.. which is old and wonderful, by definition is muslim.


I quite agree. My friend also spoke about the historical rise to power of fundamentalist Islam, which I imagine hadn't happened yet when the Arab world was a place of vibrant creativity and innovation.

elektro80 wrote:
We have also seen the same denial of music in certain fundamentalist christian sects.


I'm very glad you mention this point. Thinking about fundamental christian ideas provides a useful analogy for me (as a westerner who hasn't travelled to any Muslim countries) to understand what that situation might be like. It also reminds me of a cheesy 80's American movie, Footloose. Smile

Last edited by beat amateur on Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Is rock dead? Can't say that I'm the biggest fan to begin with. Give me Kraftwerk over Creed any day!!!


personally, i am working toward a 'fusion' of the two -
rock and electronic

...

Last edited by paul e. on Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: "Sandborne," Arabs, and the Status Quo Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

beat amateur wrote:
...music in fundamentalist Islam has no place except for the singing of the Koran. Not even accompaniment!? Arabic music is obviously still being made by people who don't hold fundamentalist points of view, but it would seem to not be terribly accepted in public for religious reasons..


This is probably the most influential reason behind the relative absence I note. Kind of sad really. Of course, that's my opinion from the outside of that world.

beat amateur wrote:
Kinda like smoking pot in Canada! Razz You can do it, even on the streets in some (or all) major cities, but the average person isn't terribly impressed when they see you burnin' that green.


Even if it were offered? Come now.

Cyx

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

beat amateur wrote:
More interesting points for discussion. In an academic sense what we're creating as electronic artists is inherently influenced by music dating back possibly to the ancient Greeks (who may have been early adherents to the modes/scales we use today), if only for the fact that we grew up listening to 'western' music. I also imagine several people in this forum are very aware of using what has been discovered/explored about music in the past, dating back hundreds of years even, to write music.


Well.. yes.. of course.. what we do would of course be part of the big tradition called music. Even when you break the rules.. we can not escape that fact. I see nothing wrong in being part of a old old tradition and having a go at the craft.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oops...edited
Last edited by paul e. on Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

beat amateur wrote:
I quite agree. My friend also spoke about the historical rise to power of fundamentalist Islam, which I imagine hadn't happened yet when the Arab world was a place of vibrant creativity and innovation.


Maybe my history is a bit shakey on this point, but doesn't the rise of fundamentalist Islam to where it is today seem to have conincided losely with the proliferation of oil in that region?

Cyx

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Last edited by Cyxeris on Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ahhhhh... probably no connection.. or.. you can see this as a reaction to being exploited.. and they have tried to use religion in order to build a new force. But.. fundamentalism is not all Islam is about these days. It is just as diverse as christianity.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
beat amateur wrote:
I also imagine several people in this forum are very aware of using what has been discovered/explored about music in the past, dating back hundreds of years even, to write music.


I see nothing wrong in being part of a old old tradition and having a go at the craft.


I had in fact included myself as part of the group that use the past to enlighten the future. Good music is like good scientific data; it exists independently of time and technology.

Cyxeris wrote:
Even if it were offered? Come now.

From what I hear this would be true in Vancouver Mr. Green

The Putamayo label has a couple of good comps, 'Arabic groove' and 'Asian groove', which is really 'South Asian groove'. Both very nice examples of Arabic and South Asian artists producing material that has a more or less electronic sound.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is that label googleable? Or do you have an url handy?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:57 pm    Post subject: Look here Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.putamayo.com/catalog/itemlist.php?cat_id=00003
http://www.putamayo.com/catalog/itemlist.php?cat_id=00013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THX! Very Happy
I will check out those songs.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well..there are very nice examples of music coming from the Muslim world like USTAD NUSRAT FATEH ALI KHAN that I also had the chance to see live here in Florence maybe 10 years ago. Peter Gabriel's Real World label released many of his albums. I first heard him on the soundtrack of Scorsese's movie "Last temptation of Christ". The album was called "PASSION", a must have Exclamation
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THX for that link! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
Peter Gabriel's Real World label released many of his albums. I first heard him on the soundtrack of Scorsese's movie "Last temptation of Christ". The album was called "PASSION", a must have Exclamation


Excellent excellent excellent album.




excellent album

Cyx

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