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gomidas
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 365
Location: La Ciotat, France
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 6
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 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:09 am Post subject:
 ABLETON LIVE 6 beta Bank change DOES work with Clavia |
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How could that be? What kind of world I am livin' in? Live5 bank change is not workin'?? 
Does anyone use this feature in Ableton Live?
UPDATE:Read until the end
Last edited by gomidas on Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tangerin
Joined: Jan 22, 2005
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:28 am Post subject:
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yes i have the same problem in live 5.
I mailed ableton about this and they said it's a clavia problem  |
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gomidas
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 365
Location: La Ciotat, France
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 6
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:20 am Post subject:
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If I register their forum I think it's gonna be a bad day for them
My G2s works perfectly with pro tools LE.I mean IT IS NOT a CLAVIA PROBLEM...to say it more clearly:
ABLETON LIVE IS A BIG SHI*T  |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:
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The problem is the order in which Ableton sends the Banch change LSB, MSB
Ableton sends
CC30 LSB
CC0 MSB
PCH
G2 sends/recieves
CC0 MSB
CC30 LSB
PCH
It looks like the G2 must recieve the MSB first. It also looks like this may be the way the messages should be sent. Here are 2 examples.
from http://www.mpc2000xl.com/bank_changes.htm
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Bank change messages typically consist of two control changes, CC#0 and CC#32, and are usually transmitted in pairs. First you send CC#0, value, CC#32, value, then Program change #. Some instruments may not use both and only use one of them. CC#0 is the MSB(most significant byte) and CC#32 is the LSB(least significant byte), in case you see this referenced elsewhere. The actual calculation for the bank # is (128 times MSB value) + LSB value, but this may vary from synth to synth. |
from http://m-pulse.m-audio.com/articles/june2005/trigger_finger.php
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The Trigger Finger sends both the bank and program information every time a Program/Bank Change is issued. This means that each Program/Bank Change results in four MIDI messages being sent from the Trigger Finger—the MIDI Channel, Bank MSB, Bank LSB, and Program Change all in one burst. So, for each Program/Bank Change you want to perform, you must program four values into the Trigger Finger. |
I've emailed Ableton directly to see what their reply is.
Could someone look up some official MIDI spec document which describes the message sending order in detail as I have a dinner to attend to. This will help us greatly (we are not alone with this problem CS1X users, and others have reported the same issue).
Clavia is careful when it comes to sticking to the MIDI spec, all Nord products respond this way I am sure.
Bon apetit.
/Dasz
| Description: |
1st 3 lines - Ableton
last 3 lines - G2 |
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jamos
Joined: Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 514
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject:
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The MIDI spec is slightly ambiguous on this, but it seems to favor the MSB first:
The transmitter must transmit the MSB and LSB as a pair...
The messages Bank Select MSB, LSB, and program number will select a specific program...
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gomidas
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 365
Location: La Ciotat, France
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G2 patch files: 6
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:10 am Post subject:
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dasz wrote : | Quote: | | It looks like the G2 must recieve the MSB first. It also looks like this may be the way the messages should be sent |
In fact the G2 DOESN'T USE bank MSB ( cc#0 ) AT ALL!!!!!!!
ONLY bank LSB ( cc#32 ) is used.
Maybe it's the source of the problem?I mean cc#0 and cc#32 don't appear in the controler# list in Ableton Live, so they should have decided to use it as pair, but NMs don't recognize this message....as NMs wait for CC#32 ONLY.
So even if in A.Live banks are MSB (cc#0) and sub-banks are LSB (cc#32), using only sub-banks won't do the tricks (..or maybe sometimes if you are in a lucky day).
A simple solution will be if they add CC#32 in their controller list ( and a good list editor) |
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gomidas
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 365
Location: La Ciotat, France
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:01 am Post subject:
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godmias,
both the G2 and Ableton always send both bank change bytes (CC0 and CC32). I tried all the permutations with midiox running.
jamos, can you pm me the document/link you were quoting?
/Dasz |
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BobTheDog
Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 4044
Location: England
Audio files: 32
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:27 am Post subject:
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Hi Guys.
I Have emailed ableton and clavia on this one a while ago.
Clavia say it is an ableton problem.
Ableton say it is a clavia problem.
So there we go.
Cheers
Andy |
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gomidas
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 365
Location: La Ciotat, France
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 6
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:47 am Post subject:
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http://www.srm.com/qtma/davidsmidispec.html
| Quote: | Program Change
A sound module may switch easily between as many as 128 different programmed sounds, numbered 0 to 127.
Many synthesizers support more than 128 programmed sounds by means of a "bank select" command. Older synths have typically used a device-specific system exclusive command. Newer synths use controllers 0 and 32 to select a bank. Unfortunately, there is no standard for whether it is, in fact, controller 0 or 32, or both, and if both, must be sent first. |
if you want to be a little more confuse...
http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/MIDI/Bank_Changes.html
| Quote: | | No synthesizers have enough banks to need both MSB and LSB, so a few expect the number in the MSB and don't need an LSB. Others demand an MSB of 0, with the bank number in the LSB. |
So Say We All  |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
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gomidas
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 365
Location: La Ciotat, France
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:44 am Post subject:
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THAT IS A VERY VERY GOOD NEWS, THANK YOU, DASZ !!!!! I SEE YOU DIDN'T WANT THIS TO STAY UNSOLVE 
| Quote: | | Maybe now you feel better about them |
Actually I was very disappointed as Live is the one of the best seq. of the market 
NOW LET'S GO BACK TO LIVE6 (oops sorry, it's coming soon)...... |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:54 am Post subject:
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Thanks gomidas  ,
But I don't think I had anything to do with it. I emailed them like others here (& at ableton forum) did.
I don't even know at which point they implemented the change. I only started looking at ableton live 6 beta 17.
But yeah, now ableton live and the g2 click a lot better together.
I did notice that while I was setting up the bank and patch changes in ableton that the G2 wouldn't always react -- although part of it was the fact I had monitoring on and not auto.
Also, I noticed that the G2 only changes patches/banks if they are different from the currently loaded one.
/Dasz |
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gomidas
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 365
Location: La Ciotat, France
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 6
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject:
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I've just made a test with Live 6b21...AND IT IS WORKING FOR ME ALSO...
Maybe it's a magic topic where every wishes come true  ....maybe a midnam or xml patchnames support in the final Live 6  |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject:
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Hi gomidas,
| Quote: |
I've just made a test with Live 6b21...AND IT IS WORKING FOR ME ALSO... Wink |
Glad you could confirm the bank changes in the Live 6 beta. Yay! No more reasons to hold back on doing a Live/G2 set! Maybe it will stop the procrastination ....
| Quote: | Maybe it's a magic topic where every wishes come true Question
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Heh heh ... don't I wish it was ... then I really couldn't get any work done, as I would be waiting for all the wishes to be fulfilled ...
Gotta break through....
/Dasz |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
Posts: 2503
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject:
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| Can anyone confirm if Live6 now supports NRPN MIDI now? (for control of volumes, buttons, etc) |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:54 am Post subject:
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Live 6.0 is out now (as of yesterday). I'm downloading it as I speak -- pretty slow tho -- their server must be getting hit hard.
I'll look into NRPNs. I did not see anything wrt NRPN's in Live 5 manual. It may not be supported in 6.
/Dasz |
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