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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
General Nord Modular (NM/G2) advice needed
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vi scose poise



Joined: Jun 23, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: General Nord Modular (NM/G2) advice needed Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Greetings, this is my first post on these forums..

I'm a music composition student studying 20th century and electroacoustic music. I compose experimental electronic (IDM, braindance, whatever) music as well.

I am primarily interested in a modular synthesizer for sound design use (but also melodies and basses) in the fields mentioned above. Such a synth would compliment a Yamaha FS1R, Elektron Machinedrum, Reaktor (not used often because of CPU usage), and Max/MSP in my setup.

I would absolutely love a Cwejman Sound S1mkII but it is simply beyond my budget. This leaves me to consider the original Nord Modular and the G2. The G2 is quite expensive and I've focused mostly on the original NM. However, is the G2 is an absolute must, I will definitely reconsider.

Comments? Advice?
Fantastic forums, by the way!
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jamos



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi, Vi, and welcome.

The G2 is definitely the way to go, IMHO, if you can afford it... but if you can't, the NM or even the Micro is certainly adequate for what you want to do.

BTW, where in the US are you?
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Jason



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome

I am so happy that I got my G2.
It isnt for everyone though, but if your interested in modular stuff
and are willing to spend time with it , it is a great choice. Also dont forget about the G2 engine option which is much less expensinve though you dont have all the cool interface options on the keyboard, but this is easily remedied if you get a nice midi controller.
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lamarcph



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The G2 is very very good, I got it (G2 keyboard) last october and it is simply amazing. Last month I sold 4 synth (75% of my rig), because I felt that the G2 could do almost everything but better. I am sure that I am not the only one who felt that way. Anyway it's a matter of taste, not everyone might like it as much.

I don't even use a sequencer other than the one inside the g2 now. I find it easier to just mix everything on the fly in real time. It may not be as powerfull as a dedicated sequencer, but it's way more fun.

I realy like the keyboard version because it's small and lite, I can bring it wherever I want.

I never used the nm, so i can't realy comment on that one.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have two G2X.

They have gradually replaced my entire old hardware setup -many synths, 19" FX, stompboxes, you name it. I don't want to go back to anything else. I have no regrets.

Though the G2 still has some shortcomings which annoy me considerably, I still do not hesitate a second to say that the G2 is, by far, the best synth I've ever laid my hands on in my life.

No other synth strikes such a perfect balance between modular flexibility and ease of use. A friend of mine who uses Max came by yesterday for a quick demonstration. He left my studio as a different man. He was simply blown away by the speed by which stuff can be accomplished on the G2. He's saving his cash now...

I only can give my strongest recommendations.
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cebec



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:

Though the G2 still has some shortcomings which annoy me considerably, I still do not hesitate a second to say that the G2 is, by far, the best synth I've ever laid my hands on in my life.
No other synth strikes such a perfect balance between modular flexibility and ease of use.
...
I only can give my strongest recommendations.


I have to emphatically second that! Though I don't have as extensive a background as tim, I have nevertheless failed to find another instrument that is as simultaneously fun, inspiring, or flexible as the G2.

I had an NM KB and my G2 KB is significantly advanced in terms of it's hardware and software interface. There are some features in the editor and hardware that I now find indispensible... not the least of which, this community!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, if asked...
(I have a fundamental difference of opinion with my friends around here on this.)

I think the NM sounds considerably better then the G2. So far the blame has been placed with the different DAC´s but other theories exist, truth is I simply don´t like the G2´s shallow, trancy, "nu" sound. The G2 does have a lot of interesting extra modules but to me those only become realy interesting in fairly large numbers (i´m talking about the shift registers and multiplexers and so on) which runs into problems with the zero page memory (meaning you can only have a very limited amount of those modules) and then you are aproaching a teritory that´s covered in more depth by MAX anyway. The G2 does offer extra features in the form of more extensive delay based modules but those suffer from only being 16 bits.

The final important difference comes in the form of the G2 being able to output MIDI based on data generated by the patches and this is where I feel the G2 is quite interesting amongst other hardware but that does not cover the price difference to me and frankly if you also use MAX it´s not too relevant anyway. I´d buy a version with only the cv based modules and the interface if Clavia would make it at a reasonable price.

The interface of the G2 keyboard versions is superior, IMHO, to the NM (though many people feel differently due to the samller number of physical knobs) but sadly those only come with a keyboard that feels decidedly cheap to me and that still takes up space. The G2 is also much more "keyboard centric" then the NM which is fine if the keyboard is your primary instrument but psychologically limiting if you see that as one amongst a range of options.

So, in my eye the NM is superior to the G2, especially at the price (but I´d still take it over the G2 at the same price because I rate the sound quality as the most important element in instruments). For the same price as a G2 you could get a NM rack *and* a decent MIDI keyboard which will give you both a better feel and more keys (should you be into keyboards) and a much better sound. I think it can´t be beaten in the hardware market, not even by Clavia themselves.

Unlike the NM there is a software version of the G2 (free (as in beer) even) and if you have the CPU power then that might be worthy of consideration over a hardware G2 since you could record it digitally or -if you mix analogue- bypass the DAC´s the hardware version suffers from. It´s only monophonic though (I think).

All of this is IMHO, listen for yourself.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:
...No other synth strikes such a perfect balance between modular flexibility and ease of use. A friend of mine who uses Max came by yesterday for a quick demonstration. He left my studio as a different man. He was simply blown away by the speed by which stuff can be accomplished on the G2. He's saving his cash now...

I'll second that. I have a copy of Reaktor that's gathering dust. It's not that Reaktor can't do what I'm doing on the G2. It can. But I work so much faster in the G2 editor, testing ideas so much more quickly, that Reaktor is no longer worth the time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I recommend the G2 as well. While there are some valid audio quality concerns, particularly the 16-bit delays, the user-interface genuinely affords much more rapid development. It has become my primary synth.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree the G2 gas a very good interface for quick development compared to other digital modulars, but does it compared to the NM? I think the differences are slight and don´t outweigh factors like the sound and the price. Also for the NM there is OS2.x which still has the calculator and which has support for "building blocks" that can be draged into a patch quickly.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The current prices of used NM1s do make them tremendous deals.

These days, I need the G2 module set to do what I want to do. Particularly the SeqCtr module, which has no counterpart on the NM.

But if someone doesn't need the G2 features, then an NM, or a micromodular, is a great bargain.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Chet wrote:
These days, I need the G2 module set to do what I want to do. Particularly the SeqCtr module, which has no counterpart on the NM.


You may want to have a look at the recent topic of sequencers on the NM board. If you calculate the f' (or derivative) of the function you´d normally feed the SeqCtr with you can use a modification on my example patch to do the same thing in many (if not all?) cases. The controll in that case would be relative instead of absolute (though it can be made absolute too with trivial modifications) which often makes more musical sense (at least to me). The same relative controll could be made with a feedbackloop on a S&H to controll the SeqCtr in the G2 if need be but in that case you need a modulus function to wrap around or you´ll run into headroom problems.

There are some modules in the G2 that have no NM counterpart but many of the new ones can be build with a little thought. For novice users this makes it easier to get certain things out of the G2 then out of the NM for the first months but Vi Scose Poise doesn´t strike me as a novice user and so I see no need to spend more then a grand on those, then get stuck with a bad sound. Admittedly the NM needs more modules to build some of the readymade higher order modules found in the G2, costing precious zero page memory, but not as many as you need in the G2 to get it to sound good (which also takes far more time and skill then designing a couple of straightforward logic and math based contructions!).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Chet wrote:
tim wrote:
...No other synth strikes such a perfect balance between modular flexibility and ease of use. A friend of mine who uses Max came by yesterday for a quick demonstration. He left my studio as a different man. He was simply blown away by the speed by which stuff can be accomplished on the G2. He's saving his cash now...

I'll second that. I have a copy of Reaktor that's gathering dust. It's not that Reaktor can't do what I'm doing on the G2. It can. But I work so much faster in the G2 editor, testing ideas so much more quickly, that Reaktor is no longer worth the time.


Could I 3rd (???) that too?! If you have no friends, buy Reaktor- but if like me, you have a social life, get a Nord Modular! You're more likely not to forget what the hell your doing (or could that be the other way round- depending on how much you get carried away with the NM patching- as it's so easy!)

I'm not surprised that Kassen has a problem with the sound from the G2 tho. I always state that 16 bit (or 18 in the NM1 case- or is it 20??) sounds so much better than 24+ bit imo. But I always have to work on the sound of my NM to get it sounding warmer. In my case through a battered old HH guitar amp and then miked-up :)

The bottom line is -I don't know why I wasted £200 buying reaktor (I never use it)- the NM is so much better.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As I read the question it´s not about whether the Clavia´s are preferable over reactor or not. I read it to be about a desision between getting a NM and a G2 and wether the extra price tag was worth it.

I´m realy not sure wether there is any link between programing and not having a social life and if there is I don´t think it´s too productive to imply it here since the question came from sombody who also uses MAX/MSP.....

I think that every serious synthesis fanatic will go "head down" for a week or so every once in a while to work on some project, patch or research; I know I do. Sometimes you simply need the focus and concentration and you can pick up your social life again afterwards. I don´t see anything wrong with that. I´ve spend blocks of three days and two nights on some patches. You sleep it off, then place a phonecall or two to go do something completely different. Afterwards you can put your new patch on a strap-on midi keyboard or sequence it from a groovebox or whatever. It´s all good.

I have a little notebook for when I need some piece of paper, it´s filled with patch schematics and diagrams with acompanying mathematical algorithems and on the next page there´ll be a phonenumber with a name.... I don´t see a conflict at all, as long as you don´t mention compilers on dates you´ll be fine.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with all the positives about the G2. I agree that the NM1 was a great synth, I loved it, but when I got my hands on the G2 last year I immediately gave the NM1 away to a good friend. I have not regretted it for one minute.

The G2 is much more powerful and, IMHO, it sounds better than the NM1. I do a lot of patches with FM feedback and the G2 seems to go a lot farther before it craps out compared to NM1 (at least as I recall). The G2's interslot audio communition and MIDI implementation is much more feature-rich than the NM1. The encoder knobs are much better for many reasons. The main one is that they jump to where you want them when you change patches or variations (NM1 has no variations). The G2 is a much more playable instrument, IMHO.

When you buy an electronic instrument, the investment is both of your time and money. Time is more valuable than money in many cases. I would not want to invest too much time in piece of gear that has passed its end of life (EOL). Clavia no longer supports the old NM1. On the other hand we can expect new software releases from Clavia. The new bio-genetic patch mutation software coming out in the new 1.4 realse should be quite something. Also, the community of people who actively develop and publish patches for the Nord Modulars are working mostly on the G2. In many ways, the commuity is the G2's most valuable feature.

If I were forced to have only one synth, it would be the G2X.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I´m realy not sure wether there is any link between programing and not having a social life and if there is I don´t think it´s too productive to imply it here since the question came from sombody who also uses MAX/MSP.....



Hey Kassen calm down mate! It was meant as a joke :)) -I was being facetious!!

Tom :-)
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7om



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I agree the G2 gas a very good interface for quick development compared to other digital modulars, but does it compared to the NM? I think the differences are slight and don´t outweigh factors like the sound and the price. Also for the NM there is OS2.x which still has the calculator and which has support for "building blocks" that can be draged into a patch quickly.


I wasn't suggesting the G2 was necessarily a more efficient UI than the NM, as I have never used the NM. I would assume they are somewhat similar given that the paradigm is the same. As the nature of the original inquiry specifically asks about these two specifically, I could have been more clear. I think the G2 is a good choice, but I can't say that it is better than the NM, only that it seems to have better usability than most soft synths.

That said, I think mosc's points regarding the support of current products relative to discontinued products is an important consideration as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
[
Hey Kassen calm down mate! It was meant as a joke Smile) -I was being facetious!!

Tom Smile


Sorry. There are many people that actually do believe what I though you believed; I thought I´d speak up in a constructive way before somebody took offense. Coding isn´t considdered to be sexy; I thought I´d twist the question to "dosed persistence" which I think is.

Please considder my remarks intended for those people who think like that and have a midnight coffee on my tap :¬).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
The G2 is much more powerful and, IMHO, it sounds better than the NM1.


This is a matter of opinon, I suppose. I encourage Vi to listen for himself and make up his own mind.

Quote:
I do a lot of patches with FM feedback and the G2 seems to go a lot farther before it craps out compared to NM1 (at least as I recall).


Even when using the slave signals on the NM? I believe the new FM stuff is inspirered heavily on those. FM realy isn´t my specialty, I´ll take your word for it if you insist.

Quote:
The G2's interslot audio communition and MIDI implementation is much more feature-rich than the NM1.


True. For one thing it has interslot and inter-voice bussing at all in addition to the MIDI implementation I already touched on. IMHO it´s not going far enough to be considdered "feature rich" though, I especially ran into problems when adressing the patch the MIDI was generated from. However; MIDI was still somewhat relevant back when the NM came out, right now, instead of concentrating on a 80´s cludge, I´d rather look ahead at OSC which the G2 lacks for reasons unknown.


Quote:
The encoder knobs are much better for many reasons.


True.

Quote:
The main one is that they jump to where you want them when you change patches or variations (NM1 has no variations).


The G2 only has 8 or ten or so; it´s all a matter of perspective and where you choose to stand. If I wanted to plead for the NM then I´d stress that the G2´s implementation of knobs above the 8th is very limited (since it has none). I never used variations at all, not even in systems where your amount of variations is only limited by HD space. I however do not choose to plead in any speciffic direction; my loyalty lies where it always has been meaning development and sound quality; if in a few years Clavia would return to those concepts I´ll heppily defend them again.

Quote:

The G2 is a much more playable instrument, IMHO.


Since it accepts the exact same types of data as the NM I don´t see the difference. The NM, IMHO is listenable as a instrument.

Quote:

When you buy an electronic instrument, the investment is both of your time and money.


True. See below.

Quote:

Time is more valuable than money in many cases.


I loudly agree.

Quote:

I would not want to invest too much time in piece of gear that has passed its end of life (EOL). Clavia no longer supports the old NM1. On the other hand we can expect new software releases from Clavia.


Well, that´s subjective; I´m still getting new things out of mine. Frankly it affects me very little that Clavia isn´t making new updates for the NM anymore; I´ve become self-sufficient with regard to new concepts. In fact; as soon as I have time to port important patches I´m going back to the more powerfull NM os, meaning the last verion of OS2.

However; if investing in a new instrument I´d be extremely weary of a company that previously claimed to make instruments that would last a lifetime, then drop a instrument with known bugs for the exact reasons you mention above; in fact Clavia explicitely promised me personally to fix the bugs I reported to them in the last update to the NM, then droped it without apology. Keep that in mind if you are waiting for promised updates to the G2. Clavia dropping the NM as a platfrom, contrary to their (written) promises to me is a signifficant factor in me moving to open-source software at the moment, my disilusionment in Clavia as a company and my disapointment with the industry in general. I´m not sure about other teritories but I believe this is against Dutch law too and I´m absolutely certain it´s contrary to what I see as ethical. I won´t hold this against Clavia in a court because of my respect for what they once used to represent to me but I *am* disapointed. At least with a NM you know what you are getting, with the G2 relying on possible future updates is a risky and possibly expensive gamble.

Quote:

The new bio-genetic patch mutation software coming out in the new 1.4 realse should be quite something.


I suppose; I was doing similar stuff in real time years ago on the NM. There are big and deep problems with applying that field to synthesis or for that matter any aesthetics based field. My own attempt was inspirered mainly on the method of selection employed by the research of Pauline Hogeweg in the 70´s (a minor victory for the university of Utrecht in this field) but even with this more direct way of expressing taste it remains very hard to build a system that can interpert this expression in a intuitively meaningfull way.

Quote:

Also, the community of people who actively develop and publish patches for the Nord Modulars are working mostly on the G2. In many ways, the commuity is the G2's most valuable feature.


I developed my style of patching the NM independantly of anyone else and I have no regrets. I love the sense of comunity but I see the curent state more as a community of people into the digital branch of modular synthesis then as a community centered on the G2.

Quote:

If I were forced to have only one synth, it would be the G2X.


That´s a matter of taste; If I were forced to just one synth for eternity I´d pick Csound simply because most significant developments in synthesis have been prototyped there (and thus are present) and it doesn´t rely on the artificial constraint of being "real time" (which simply isn´t fast enough for me). We´ll see in two or three decades which one is still in development. I´m confident, based on well documented history, are you? If we are talking about digital modular synths for right now I´d pick Tassman because it sounds good.

Notice I didn´t introduce any new criteria in this discussion, everything I mentioned was introduced or adressed by you. I realise I may well sound agressive towards you; I´m not. I´m simply disapointed with Clavia (who choose not to engage in the discussion on the G2). To me the "G2" isn´t a second generation of anything; it´s a new thing. Instead of the second generation of the Nord Modular (which it implies to be) it´s a mixture of the NM with something along the lines of a Korg Triton. Even Clavia didn´t dare to call it a Nord Modular2, and with good reason.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To paraphrase one of Clavias slogans: "Some discussions never go out of style"

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-4827.html
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-5879.html


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Sorry.


Bah no worries- it's good to aplogise on a list- more people should do it imo.



Kassen wrote:

Please considder my remarks intended for those people who think like that and have a midnight coffee on my tap :¬).


Ahh that's whats going on here- coffee! In the past I too have been ordered to lay off the expresso! (I think that was on the NM@code404 list)

The bottom line is that Internet forums are the worst places to make conversation. The best place are in pubs with good Ale, a beer garden and lots of sunshine!

regards,

Tom

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
lots of sunshine!

is Brum the right place for lots of sunshine Question Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:37 am    Post subject: OhhhTeeee! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
lots of sunshine!

is Brum the right place for lots of sunshine :?: :D


Not as much as Italy is!

In fact the 'heatwave' here came to an abrupt end last friday when it absolutely pissed it down, a carried on pissing it down for 2 days. Today however the sun has come out again- and it's a lot cooler :)

I used to live in Pisa- in fact I've lived and visited all over the world- mainly due to my father being a geometric topologist (Dr of mathematics) and being a musician and photographer has taken me all over the place too. But the hottest places I've been to have been Rome, Colombo (Sri Lanka) and believe it or not- Vancouver, Canada.

The coldest place was Moscow last year- which was -27C! And there I was thinking that a jacket, t-shirt and shirt would be adaquate- errr big mistake!

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ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
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ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

Ahh that's whats going on here- coffee! In the past I too have been ordered to lay off the expresso! (I think that was on the NM@code404 list)



"going on here"? I dunno, I do drink a fair amount of coffee, more so when in the frame of mind where I see few people and program a lot.


Quote:

The bottom line is that Internet forums are the worst places to make conversation. The best place are in pubs with good Ale, a beer garden and lots of sunshine!


Well, yes, but clearly we can´t get everybody together all the time. I don´t know wether he tried but I think VI´s chances of finding a group of people that´s knowledgable the difference between the NM and the G2 in his local beer gardens are quite slim. If they aren´t perhaps I should visit his hometown....

I think many of these points could be more adequately adressed in real life; it´s one thing to claim a module can be emulated but quite another to be able to demonstrate this on the spot; attachments only go so far.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...please stay on the espresso..
We are trying to be sponsored by some italian coffee brand..


..that reminds me.. I need another shot right now.. Shocked

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