electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
go to the radio page Live at electro-music.com radio 1 Please visit the chat
poster
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Pics of Moog 914 Fixed Filter Bank
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 2 [36 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Pics of Moog 914 Fixed Filter Bank Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In another topic - http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-14632.html - we were discussing a bit about the Moog Fixed Filter Bank modules. I received this PM from 3PHase. I trust he won't mind me referencing it here.

Quote:
Hi Howard,
thanks for the link to the Moog filter bank. i quickly found out why there are no remakes...
Moog didn't try to make the coils small... and therefore they are big part of the specific sound and not easy to build. The bass ones must be huge.
To rebuild a 907 module it would need to recreate the coils in a similar fashion as they done in the real thing...

Did you ever had a chance to look inside one of this modules?

How are the could done? around a ferrite shaft? or in a ferrite housing?
Or do they look like transformers with a metal block?

Ho w are they physical dimensions roughly? is the coil cable very thin or already in the 0,5 mm diameter region?

I don't know if you have answers for this questions ..but maybe?

Best regards,
Sven


Since it has been a long time since I looked at the innards of the modules in my Moog, I decided to open her up and take some pics of the 914 module. Maybe in this case the old cliché is true that "a picture is worth a thousand words".


DSC02243.JPG
 Description:
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module
 Filesize:  2.37 MB
 Viewed:  4034 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

DSC02243.JPG



DSC02244.JPG
 Description:
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module
 Filesize:  2.17 MB
 Viewed:  3966 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

DSC02244.JPG



DSC02247.JPG
 Description:
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module
 Filesize:  2.18 MB
 Viewed:  3890 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

DSC02247.JPG



DSC02245.JPG
 Description:
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module
 Filesize:  2.18 MB
 Viewed:  3907 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

DSC02245.JPG



DSC02246.JPG
 Description:
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module
 Filesize:  2.24 MB
 Viewed:  3879 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

DSC02246.JPG



_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2669
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 626

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, no wonder the Moog modular sounds so 'big'. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks..thats interesting...

the coils look like ferrit ring coils witch a lot of windings...
Nothing anybody like to do by hand...that and the perfect shape of them indicate an idustrial source... either specially winded for Moog or maybe some 'US standard product? Anybody came along such a produkt somewhere?
It actually looks like that Moog got the desired Values by combining multiple smaller coils. This also indicates an industrial produkt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On one of the pictures it looks like that the coils are labeled...

Is it maybe possible to read one of this labels?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Is it maybe possible to read one of this labels?


I guess one could tear into this and find some writing on the coils, but I started getting nervous just taking pictures of it so I have put it back in the case and secured the screws. I'm sure the sound is not dependent on the coils' manufacturer any more than that of the capacitors which are just as an important a part of the circuit.

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I'm sure the sound is not dependent on the coils' manufacturer any more than that of the capacitors which are just as an important a part of the circuit.


Dont want to force you to open it again...

The capaciators are an easy gool...just get good foil types and it should be wright in spec...

with the coil its probably different. The amount of windigs... core material..is it ferrit? probably..but dont have to be...
All this affects the sound very much as you can hear easiely when doing crossovers for speakers... it should be as drastical in a filter

Its defenetly interesting to see that a 5H coil is done out of 2x2H and one 1H...at least it looks like that...
I hope i find a non industrial source to experiment around a bit...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Didn't Bob Moog say that the only thing he regretted about the Minimoog was that it never had a fixed filter bank added to it??

I think these modules tend to be quite underrated, but they're a very important part of sound design.

The size of those coils are crazy Shocked

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Uncle Krunkus
Moderator


Joined: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 4761
Location: Sydney, Australia
Audio files: 52
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Did you actually mean 5H, or 5mH?
_________________
What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mosc provided a link to the schematics in another thread...there its clearly stated that the lowcut is two 5 Henry coils...

That is easily backed up from the beautifull pictures in this thread...
Torodial inducters of that szise and with so many windings....
In relation to the power they have to handle, they are huge..
so no printing mistake in the schematics...

Ive never seen so beefy coils in a filter...even in the old Telefunken, Eckmiller stuff they managed it with 1,5H in the max...
And this units are known for good sound in mastering applikations because of theiere "huge" coils.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
kkissinger



Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Posts: 1353
Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
Audio files: 41

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the Fixed-filter bank is in many ways the "missing ingredient" that differentiates the Moog Modular from other synths of the era (MiniMoog, Arp Oddessy and 2600) -- including my Aries (Aries didn't offer a fixed filter bank module).

I have been tempted to add a fixed-filter bank to the Aries (I believe dot-com sells one) however a lack of panel space has discouraged me from pursuing such a project.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is the schematic.


moog914schemo.gif
 Description:
Moog 914 schematic diagram
 Filesize:  85.16 KB
 Viewed:  757 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

moog914schemo.gif



_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff

Last edited by mosc on Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm- yummy Very Happy

It's remarkable how simple it is. Idea

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

It's remarkable how simple it is. Idea


Yea, as I recall that was typical of most of the Moog modules.

Loved those 2n2925/26s Ah memories Cool

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For completeness, let me post the link to those schematics.

http://www.physicsenterprises.andrews.edu/diy_archive/manuals/moog/index.html#mod

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a link to a schematic for a mixer

http://www.physicsenterprises.andrews.edu/diy_archive/manuals/moog/modular/mod_07.gif

] It uses an op amp. Several other modules also use them. But I don't remember seeing any in the Moog at J.U. Is that just bad memory?

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Around 1972, I think it was, Moog released improved versions of some of the modules including the oscillators, 921, 921A and 921B. These use ICs as does the 960 sequencer.
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
synthbaron



Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting. My 907 didn't have trimmers and had front panel pots with built in switches.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The schematic Mosc has posted first was slightly different to this one..
Seems that there are different versions.

Seems that the Moog Filterbank was a very valuable piece of circuit..even when it might appear simple..there is so much fine selection necessary to build it... Probably because of variations in the coils...
Nothing anybody would build today...
I like the idea to build me one when i can get a connection to some coils..
But coils are expensiv... Nothing i can afford wright now..
I will give the legendary x-former manufactor Haufe a call and ask if the have any standard values availible... They are defenetly one of the most knowledged sources of audio induktors on the planet. Maybe its not more expensiv with them than with an industrial source because they are used to work with privat developers.
Small quantities of an expensiv product might be still cheaper than industrial sources where you have to take bigger amounts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CZ Rider



Joined: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Southeastern,PA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:20 pm    Post subject: 914 winder Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Everybody,
Noticed you are discussing the Moog fixed filter bank construction.
I have some info on these. The coils are toroidal and are wound on
three different type cores. There are ferrite, powderd iron, and molly
permalley cores. The winding amount is determined by the permeability
of the core and the value desired. These cores were manufactured by
the Allen Organ factory for Moog. All of the toroids came from there.
Funny thing is I have the actual machines and formulas used to
manufacture these cores. I am working on sources for the various
items needed to remanufacture these. At the moment I need a
permeability meter? And a few other things, (wax,cores)
Hey Howard, thanks for posting the pics of the innards of the 914.
Someday perhaps I will be able to make some of these. They look to
be expensive though parts wise. About 3 to 5 dollars each to make.
Here are some photos of the actual winders that made all of the fixed
filter toroids.
Terry




Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked

WOW!!

Does it also make porridge?? Laughing

welcome to electro-music.com CZ! Very Happy

I suppose you are offering to build is some coils now? Wink

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, CZ has finally posted something on the forum. welcome

This is a red letter day for electro-music.com. Very Happy

To let out a secret, CZ is 1/2 of Orbital Decay, a major electro-music group. They have played electronic music for decades - appearing regularly at The Gatherings and at the electro-music events in Philly among other thing. Orbital Decay CDs are best sellers too.

CZ is a serious gear head, obviously.

Back to the topic at hand, I would love to see that coil winding machine in action.

Maybe if there are some people interested in building new 914 filters, we can get some money together to help CZ get the necessities to make a run of coils. Just a thought. I don't need any coils myself. (I have done many stupid things in my life, but getting a new Moog Modular in 1972 was not one of them.)

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

Maybe if there are some people interested in building new 914 filters, we can get some money together to help CZ get the necessities to make a run of coils. Just a thought.


A great thought I may add Very Happy

I wish Moog Music (or someone for that matter) would do a run on the PCB's (unpopulated), so that we could do a DIY Moog Idea

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
synthbaron



Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It may also be possible to scrap an old analog (before 1971) Allen Organs for inductors that are "close enough". I know mine had at least 122 of them in each generator section, and they had a minimum of two generators in an organ. They look exactly the same as the ones in the FFB. Sometimes 5 or 6 generator banks in a large one. You should be able to buy one for a couple of hundred bucks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SynthBaron wrote:
It may also be possible to scrap an old analog (before 1971) Allen Organs for inductors that are "close enough". I know mine had at least 122 of them in each generator section, and they had a minimum of two generators in an organ. They look exactly the same as the ones in the FFB. Sometimes 5 or 6 generator banks in a large one. You should be able to buy one for a couple of hundred bucks.


yes this had crossed my mind too. I had an old hammond or lowrey- can't remember now- but it had hundreds of coils inside Smile

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Uncle Krunkus
Moderator


Joined: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 4761
Location: Sydney, Australia
Audio files: 52
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How the hell do you wind a toroidal core coil anyway? Confused I'm assuming there is no gap in the core, but it seems getting hundreds of winds of enameled wire on there must be a bit of a magic trick. Shocked
_________________
What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 2 [36 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use