G2 blind users

xav · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:46 am Post subject: G2 blind users

Is there any blind G2 user?
Jean-Philippe Rikiel came to visit me and fell in love with the machine. He would like to find a solution to patch and to use drop-down menus with his translation software "Jaws". If anybody has informations that could help us, it will be welcome.
His software is running with Windows xp. Here is a link to that soft:

http://www.freedomscientific.com/

Jean-Philippe isn't new to synthesizers. You have maybe used one of his sound, the Rikiel Bass, first edited on the original Dx7 and converted for the G2. You have probably seen him with african artists, such Youssou N'Dour.
You can find all you want to know about his career here:
http://takticmusic.com/artistes/rykiel/rykiel_frames.html
I'm sure the G2 community would benefit Jean-Philippe's expertise and knowledge.

Xavier

mosc · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:36 am Post subject:

Xavier. Good to have you here.

I don't have any experience with aids for blind people using computers. I would imagine that in the case of the G2 editor which is almost totally graphical, it would be quite challenging. I hope someone else can come up with a suggestion.

From reading his web site, Jean-Philippe is certainly inspirational. Since the electro-music.com forum is primarilly text based, I would think there are tools which would enable blind people to read and participate here. Although I didn't write the forum code myself, I have hacked it up a bit to add some special features. If there is anything I can do to make this site more accessable, please let me know.

xav · Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:15 am Post subject:

Thank you Howard,
I hope Clavia will spend the same energy to add shortcuts to patch and change drop-down selectors. that could also help sighted users, when working with sophisticated patches.
I think the community could patch for blinds, if you don't mind with your forum as an interface.

xavier

mosc · Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:

xav · Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:14 am Post subject:

I think it isn't necessary to change anything.
If someone posts a patch (without the wires) and tells which output should be plugged to which input, I'm sure he'll find an answer with the patch completed.
But the first thing would be to find a motivation for Clavia to add shortcuts to wire modules.
This is my idea:
You focus the output of any module, and it proposes (with right clicking) a drop-down selection of any new module to add, and to insert if a wire is already plugged.
You focus any input of any module, and it propose a drop-down selection of any existing output of any existing module of the patch.
The benefit would also be ability to plug easy a complex patch that doesn't fit the screen.

mosc · Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:

OK, that is a good suggestion, IMHO. I think it would be useful for blind and sighted people as well. Why don't you post this in the Wish List?

xav · Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject:

I proposed my idea to Clavia's programmers. The answer was polite, but they toldme they find it difficult at this moment
make such an adaptation of the software.

ian-s · Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject:

Just had a thought regarding G2 editing by the blind. If Clavia could implement an automation layer into the editor, the type that makes MS applications like Word and Excel accessible through scripting or real programming languages. It would then be easy (less difficult) to implement a speech activated G2 editor. A small vocabulary would enable adding, connecting and tweeking modules. Without compromising or exposing the internal workings of the editor or file system. The same mechanism would also tlrivialise the creation of DX7 patch importers, parameter randomizers and even partially functional NM1 converters. But that would just be a bonus Smile

.

xav · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:49 am Post subject:

Thank you for the idea,
I don't really know how automation layer work. Would it be possible to automate so many possibilities to be able to patch anything of an existing patch?
It seems to be a nice direction.

ian-s · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:31 am Post subject:

To be honest, I have used the automation features in Word and Excel a lot but have never written an application that can ‘expose’ its objects and methods.
For example, jscript code to start Excel and open a named workbook for access looks like…

Wan · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:46 am Post subject:

ian-s · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:12 pm Post subject:

Wan · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:42 pm Post subject:

Wan · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:49 pm Post subject:

Jean-Philippe Rykiel · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject:

Hi Friends,
So here I am joining you on this list. It hasn't been too hard, except for filling the confirmation code field, but fortunately I have sighted friends around me to.
I just read the hall series of messages related to my problem, and I must say that it feels really nice in deed to see that many of you care.
That's right, the tool I'm using is a screen reader. Basically, it does two things : it replaces mouse movements with key commands, and it reads what ever it can and outputs it into Braille or voice. I don't use voice recognition for the moment.
Jaws, for that is its name, can also learn how to behave with graphics, and you can also write scripts for applications using non standard objects.
Thus, third parties have written scripts for applications such as Sound-Forge or Sonar, but that's a hell of a job and I haven't learned how to do it for the moment.
Meanwhile, what I thought of was a program that would just be a patcher, where only the name of modules would appear in standard name lists, a list of oscillators, a list of filters and so on. Then, it would have standard buttons like, "connect to next", "connect to previous", "insert", "remove", and other things like that.
All the editing could be done on the G2's front panel and that would be it.
I don't know how crazy it sounds, how much work it requires and if some one els than the Clavia team can do it. What do you say?
Also I'd love to send you a sample of my music, can I attach it to a post? How big can it be?
Best regards to all of you,

elektro80 · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject:

Welcome Jean-Philippe! Nice to have you here!

Sure you can attach a song to a post. Uploads takes some time because the file is bounced to another server after it is sent to thins server with the post. 5-15 megabyte should be just fine for a single post.

What you suggest is some sort text based interface to the editor, or rather a version of the Clavia G2 editor that has a text based interface. this is in fact pretty interesting, because this theoretically does touch upon some issues that have been discussed in other threads. Today the only way to program the G2 is by using a graphical interface with representations of the modules onscreen. Possibly extending the editor to have a textbased interface could open up the system more and one might even dream about "compiling" text patches into DIY modules.

Another thread here somewhere mentions the fact that after Clavia updated its editor, the new colorscheme proved to be hard to "read" for users who are colorblind. Clavia is using different colors to identify CV and gate signals etc. and the new colorscheme pretty much killed the interface for many who are colorblind.

Blue Hell · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject:

Welcome Jean Phillipe.

Regarding the simple editor program :

For non Clavia people it would be necessary to first reverse engineer the patch format (which tells how the patch structure and settings are stored into the patch file) before a usefull editor could be built.

This is a very time consuming task. For the NM Classic it was done, but that was easier as a patch file contains readable text. The G2 patch format however is binary, which means more work, and of course the patch format is inherently more complex as the synth itself is more complex.

To build the actual editor would be the easy part.

Jan.

xav · Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:31 am Post subject: "g2" the return of the blind

Hello everyone,
Here is a message I sent about a week ago to Clavia on behalf of my blind friend Jean-Philippe Rykiel and to which I had no answer yet. If you guys have
any idea ...
sincerely

Hello

As I mentioned in an earlier mail, we are looking for solutions to
help the blind French musician Jean-Philippe Rykiel, to access G2's
editor. This could also help visually impaired musicians who would like to
use the G2, (blind or low sighted ones.)
We miss hot keys that could connect modules to each other, and indications
that tells if an input or output is plugged, and to which other modules.
He is planning to order a customized script for his screen reader (Jaws),
to recognize all the graphical information of the editor. Since this
work is expensive, we would like to be sure of the best moment to do the
job, because any future change in the design of the interface could lead in
a big waste of money and time to fix compatibility issues.
Could you tell us if such changes are scheduled,
Jean-Philippe would appreciate your advice to choose the best moment to
collect graphical information.

Thank you

Best Regards

Xavier

deknow · Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:07 am Post subject:

for years, my day job was training people to use dragon naturallyspeaking (and some customization). the problem i see is that although this is a synthesizer designed to make sounds, the interface to program the thing is inherently graphical. short of a touch screen that also gives tactile feedback as to what is on the screen, i don't see how one can program effectively without being able to see the editor.

i can imagine a blind user using the genetics stuff, but i think there would need to be some help in the patching stage...there are just too many ins and outs on too many possible modules with too many posible positions on the screen.

deknow