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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
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 Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject:
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| an udate to the lfo question..the slave lfos in the nm1 are not phasesynced thru the slave connection... so its just frequencie related information that give the convienience that you only have to set the base frequencie at one lfo and minimizes cable connections... a thing that dont matters for a conversion because its only ment to speed up patching. |
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24083
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject:
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| qfingers wrote: | | It was buried. Anyways, here it is... |
Some details I noticed about the conversion of that patch :
- NM filter D is a 12 dB flter, the G2 translaton uses the multimode filter set to 6 dB
- NM phaser has a builtin LFO that is able to modulate the cetral frequency, it is translated to an added LFO that does feedback modultation (and that's what makes it sound so funky ! 
- I'm a bit worried about the keyboard input module translation, but can't directly point to the right spot. the NM's KbdPatch module could mostly be replaced with the G2's MonoKey module - except for the release velocity. But it would have the correct gate behaviour then I think.
- Amplifier -> level amplifier has a scaling problem, see attachment for correct midi value to readout translations.
(the file lev-scaling-xlat.txt got lost)
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Last edited by blue hell on Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject:
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| Blue Hell wrote: | | - NM filter D is a 12 dB flter, the G2 translaton uses the multimode filter set to 6 dB |
I'll change it to 12.
| Quote: | | - NM phaser has a builtin LFO that is able to modulate the cetral frequency, it is translated to an added LFO that does feedback modultation (and that's what makes it sound so funky ! |
I move the LFO to modulate the center frequency. It's easy to do.
| Quote: | | - I'm a bit worried about the keyboard input module translation, but can't directly point to the right spot. the NM's KbdPatch module could mostly be replaced with the G2's MonoKey module - except for the release velocity. But it would have the correct gate behaviour then I think. |
I didn't notice that one. I'll use that module instead. When you are dealing with over 100 modules, things get overlooked. Will the vel output have the release velocity when the gate goes low? My logic might have been wrong for the other setup, but this one requires less, even if I have to add handling release velocity similar my first attempt.
| Quote: | | - Amplifier -> level amplifier has a scaling problem, see attachment for correct midi value to readout translations. |
I'll update the amplifier with correct scaling.
Cool!!! Every little fix like this gets the converted patches a little closer. I'll probably get another version out later tonight (it's 7:30pm here) or tomorrow sometime. I would like to take a shot at the knobs and morphs. I'm going to make the above changes first, then if I'm successful with the knobs stuff, I release both.
q |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2669
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 626
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject:
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| Blue Hell wrote: | | The NM's KbdPatch module could mostly be replaced with the G2's MonoKey module - except for the release velocity. But it would have the correct gate behaviour then I think. |
As at 1.40, there is still a bug with the G2 monokey module, the vel output goes dead when switched to 'low' mode. |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:30 am Post subject:
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| qfingers wrote: | | Why bother with a constant module? Can the rate just be calculated based on the ratio and the Master? |
Problem is that the initial range of lfo´s´don't goes as much up as a slave lfo can do...and many patches use this opportunity of slave lfo´s´
they can be up to a high audio range..
to allow an lfo to do high pitches you need to add a constant value to the pitch mod input...
Try with the the G2 lfos..they can go much higher with a constant value applied...
However,.there are patches that can be done within the initial lfo ranges..
but i guess its easier for your program to just emulate the slave lfo instead having to judge about conditions...
but if you choose conditions..the normal envelope range is about 400 hz in the max....while with a constant module, they can go over 5 octaves above... |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:41 am Post subject:
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| qfingers wrote: | | Will the vel output have the release velocity when the gate goes low? |
Yeah, I think velocity refers to the last velocity received within that scope (the voice, the patch, whatever). If it didn't then note-off signals would also make velocity jump which would probably glitch and loads of S&H would be needed all the time.
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:36 am Post subject:
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Version bump to 0.6. Check original post for changes.
I didn't incorporate knobs yet because it requires a major change to all the converter objects. I was treating parameters differently then inputs and outputs. The module converter inputs and outputs have an array that is indexed the exact same as the NM1 modules. I didn't do the same for parameters and in order to handle knobs, parameters need to be indexes the same way. I'm starting on it now.
Please post tweaks, bug reports, and sample patches (if necessary).
Thanks,
q |
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monobass
Joined: Nov 30, 2004
Posts: 275
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject:
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I've not had a chance to try this yet but I'd like to add my thanks for its existence!
I sold my NM1 recently.. so will be exploring this with interest
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Wout Blommers
Joined: Sep 07, 2003
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Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject:
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Hi qfingers.
I didn't use it also, but I'll will visit dear Blue Hell in the near future who is much better in these kind of things then I am.
Just a remark.
If it is possible to create a converter for DX7 > G2, could likewise be created to the NordLead2 > G2?
It was just a thought...
Wout |
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blue hell
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | | I'll will visit dear Blue Hell in the near future |
Good I did some vacuum cleaning today 
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | Hi qfingers.
I didn't use it also, but I'll will visit dear Blue Hell in the near future who is much better in these kind of things then I am.
Just a remark.
If it is possible to create a converter for DX7 > G2, could likewise be created to the NordLead2 > G2?
It was just a thought...
Wout |
Yes, Yes, and more Yes. My hope is to either create or help create a DX7 converter, NordLead2 converter, NordLead3 converter, Evolver convert, Access Virus converter, Waldorf Micro-Q converter, Novation SuperNova converter, KORG MS2000 converter and anything else. Basically it usually comes down to parsing the MIDI sysex messages, building the model/blocks of the model, then doing a parameter convertion. Alot of this requires someone with the model we are converting from. An analysis of parameter settings to time, frequency, modulation index and mapping them to the known G2's time, frequency, and modulation indexes. It requires some effort but I think worth it because the G2 is a general purpose synth that IMHO can model any of the other synths out there.
As for the DX7, because the modules are there already, parsing sysex, building a default DX7 patch, and setting the parameters from the sysex because it's an exact parameter to parameter match. If there is documentation on DX7 sysex format, it's something that could be done relatively quickly. I think the DX7 has some LFO settings that would need more looking into though. If someone wants to take on the project using the g2ools python modules, I'll be happy to help. Otherwise, it will be awhile before I'm finished with NM1 to G2 converter. I don't want to start another project until this one is more mature.
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
Posts: 2503
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject:
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If it's done, why are people asking? Isn't this tool good enough?
q |
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blue hell
Site Admin
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject:
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| qfingers wrote: |
If it's done, why are people asking? Isn't this tool good enough? |
Apart from that there already is a large amount of DX7 patches made available as NM Classic patches that automatically will be in the project already, See : http://nm-archives.electro-music.com/010_NordModular/011_Patches/FM_for_Xmas/
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject:
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I see, it just sends MIDI cc's. It's not a converter in the sense that nm2g2 is. To do a bulk convertion would be painful. I get it now. By the way, I did a NordLead2 to Korg MOSS converter. I've got the sources around somewhere, the sysex parser of the NordLead2 could be useful for this type of thing. I'll try and track it down.
q |
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Wout Blommers
Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4529
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:41 am Post subject:
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I posted some time ago a kind of NordLead2 template, which I had to translate the values by hand. The unison isn't right, though...
The LFO rates are troublesome too.
Wout |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
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Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:36 am Post subject:
SineBank |
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I just came along that g2ools is way off regarding translating the NM´s Sinebank...
I post 2 patches..a NM1 sinebank sound with internal Am feedback..
And the handmade conversion that sounds the same.
Problem is that the internal mixer of the sinebank behaves different than external ones... The internal distorts later..
I chosed as a quick and dirty fix to reduce levels from the NMs Sinebank mixer by 5 units on the G2 mixers and boosting with an ampmodule at the end to compensate..resulting in exactly the same sound...
Before doing a conversion table it would be probably better to see first if that is necessary in the end... In the moment it would be a big win allready if g2ools would translate the patch i posted here in a similar fashion as i patched it by hand...
for demonstration reasons i patched the full sinebank... maybe its not necessary to have all vcas there when no Am modulation is used..
Note that this big G2 version uses less resources than the NM1 version of the sine bank !... Its however a close to 20% module or block on booth machines...
The Sinebank is used quite regulary in the nm lib i... but in many patches its not used for 6 sines or for having AM on all partial oscilators...
maybe g2ools can scale the sinebank as needed??
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Axiom
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:42 am Post subject:
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| qfingers wrote: | | I see, it just sends MIDI cc's. It's not a converter in the sense that nm2g2 is. To do a bulk convertion would be painful. I get it now. |
yup.. unfortunately i'm not a programmer and this was the only way i get to manage this "conversion"... If only I was able to do a library to read and write pch2 files in c# I think that a real converter can came out. The DX7 sysex file format is not so hard to manage.. but the problem, for me, is the g2 format.
Cheers,
Luca
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dorremifasol
Joined: Sep 28, 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:48 am Post subject:
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Cool! I never tried that sinebank stuff but sounds great 
While I was making some sounds with it my G2 hung up (is it said like this?), It's been the first time :/ Not even the Master Level Know works, which is strange.
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:14 am Post subject:
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3phase's recommendations have been fantastic. He's worked really hard at getting me stuff to add/fix to the converter. Today, I've got alot of changes to make for the next release.
Here is the list:
| Code: |
- Finish MIDI cc's
- Finish Morphs
- Finally cut a py2exe version
- Update OSC when using Saw waveform to add an level converter
- Update Overdrive to 3phase's model
- Add column insert routine to be used for SineBank
- Update SineBank to 3phase's model, do it in 2 columns
- Update FormantOsc to 3phase's model
- Update PitchMod input based on 3phase's table to all PitchMod'd OSCs
- Update PWMod based on 3phase's recommendations
- Calculate PW setting from NM1
- NM1 Negitive PW: 2*abs(NM1PW)
- NM1 Positive PW: 2*abs(NM1PW), add level converter on output
- Add level converter on PWMod input because it's PW always > 50%
- Possibly add Clipper on PWMod input to limit the PW to 1% and 99%
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I'm going to try and get them finished ASAP. If I don't get some done, I may still release a new version today. If time permits I can get most of them done. I have knob convertion done. The biggie is the Morphs because the NM1 morphs are more generic then the G2's when it comes to using after touch and stuff like that. The change to module models requires some effort as well.
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject:
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| qfingers wrote: | The biggie is the Morphs because the NM1 morphs are more generic then the G2's when it comes to using after touch and stuff like that. The change to module models requires some effort as well.
q |
I just spend a day... thats nothing to the whole projekt...
I see that the control/morp assign question is a hard nut...
But its also something that can have its time because its usually something left to the personal user to assign the morhs... so personally as someone that likes to transfer own patches i would benefit from a complete translation..while most patches in the lib would do well without morph assigns...At least you would get an idea whats going on and just miss the variations.
However.. i am still waiting for 1:1 comparisons and anylyses of conversions, that will bring up probably many details, because i think its better to do that when g2ools has reached a state where it is supposed to handle all conditions somehow...
I tried yesterday to do some work on problems i had with manual conversions... But there are probably still some other missmatchings i havent thaugt about yet...
anybody has more ideas where NM1 to G2 incompatibilitys exsist that might be better investigated before the program gets to a detail question state? |
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