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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
g2ools-0.91 nm1 to g2 converter
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qfingers



Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Quote:
The level converter is there for the input, there is a button on the NM1 module that converts the input signal to Pos. I think that is correct.


No it is not...was the reason the gabba hey patches was suddenly without drums after the conversion... the button on the Nm1 VCA module has nothing to do with the control signal..it reduces the impact of the vca to the sound by 50%..so 50% pass thru without modulation and the rest of the signal is under VCA control..so you need a mixer module in lin setting and levels set to 50/50 ..one input gets the VCA in signal, the other the vca output...
See the gabbahey3f1 patch as refference.


The patch you posted, the original show the Level converter in the wrong position which is a bug. I checked the manual (pg. 148) and it shows the Unipolar button and 2 graphs that describe what I said. It takes the Control bipolar input and translates it to unipolar-positive. Is the manual also wrong?

q
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:

could you post the original? Then I can validate my fixes.

Thanks,
q



The original patch is posted with my fixed converted version..the original convertion from v.09 i add to this post...


I just had a look into the envelope question..there is one significant differenence between adsr and ad envelopes...

the AD play theire complete time on even the shortest trigger pulse..the ADSR envelopes sound shorter than the assigned times when they get trigger impulses shorter than 0,5 ms...

So replacing all AD´s with ADSR´s might cause a slightly different sound :-/... this can be fixed by making the env times a bit longer...or by inserting pulse modules before the ADSR..rendering the dsp safe useless...

So... the AD to ADSR replacement is only usefull on patches that hit the 100% border..in all other cases we get a more accurate conversion by paying the higher dsp/memory usage of the G2 AD modules...

next point...


gabbahey3.pch2
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qfingers



Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
qfingers wrote:

could you post the original? Then I can validate my fixes.

Thanks,
q



The original patch is posted with my fixed converted version..the original convertion from v.09 i add to this post...


I meant the NM1 patch, so I can run it through the converter again.

Quote:
I just had a look into the envelope question..there is one significant differenence between adsr and ad envelopes...

the AD play theire complete time on even the shortest trigger pulse..the ADSR envelopes sound shorter than the assigned times when they get trigger impulses shorter than 0,5 ms...

So replacing all AD´s with ADSR´s might cause a slightly different sound :-/... this can be fixed by making the env times a bit longer...or by inserting pulse modules before the ADSR..rendering the dsp safe useless...

So... the AD to ADSR replacement is only usefull on patches that hit the 100% border..in all other cases we get a more accurate conversion by paying the higher dsp/memory usage of the G2 AD modules...

next point...


I don't monitor the resource percentage during convertion. That would be difficult as I would have to get resource numbers for each module, and then each module with audio rate applied (which increases the resource usage). That would have to be added to build/module_table.txt in the distribution. So this would be difficult to do. This may have to remain a hand tweak.

q
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:
The patch you posted, the original show the Level converter in the wrong position which is a bug. I checked the manual (pg. 148) and it shows the Unipolar button and 2 graphs that describe what I said. It takes the Control bipolar input and translates it to unipolar-positive. Is the manual also wrong?

q


no..you are wright...it can be done with the levelconverter... actually thats the way it really works... The fx is just the same when you do it with a mixer module... on negativ control settings the vca inverts and gets mixed with the 50% level from the input resulting in silence...just the same behaviour just wit a mixer module than with a level converter.
when the levelconverter is in the wright setting it works with your fix just well... dsp cost is the same but your fix needs less cabeling...so go for that but fix the setting...
translation should look like this than


vcatestfix.pch2
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="qfingers"]
Quote:
I meant the NM1 patch, so I can run it through the converter again.


ups...sorry..i thought i had posted that with the fixed conversion... i repaired that in that in the first post regarding the gabba hey patch..you can find it now there.
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24079
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
The grey output is used to tune delay lines...a thing that i now remember to have seen in some of Chet Singer patches...

We have a tactic now to deal with control signals going to grey inputs but none for grey outputs going to control inputs...

So we need an idea to deal with that... Mr Blue Hell? Any more insights of the nature of the grey signals? How does a grey output differs from the blue pitch output? can a pitchout be scaled to get the values of a grey signal?


The short answer is that the grey signals are linear and the blue ones exponetial.

The long answer is that it will be very hard to make an automatic translation for this kind of patches as it very much dpends on what is in the loop, or actuall how long the loop arounf the delay is, how the scaling has to be done.

Chet uses very elaborate scaling tactictis in his G2 wave guide patches to compensate for the loop length (the sample delays stemming from that). The scaling would not only have to be calculated depending on the loop length, but the thranslator would also have to look back if maybe the delay line delay modulation runs back to, in you r case, a master oscillator, to try to distill meaning from that.

there was also another form of a "standard" tuning circuit for delay lines which would also have to be taken into consideration.

This would be a minoroty of the patches though I guess, so maybe better leave that to hand translation. Chet already made a whole bunch of new ones for the G2 that I think to be better than the ones for the NM Classic.

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Retroperra



Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

(my first post, fantastic project!!)

3phase wrote:

at least in the NM1 the AD is often used as resource safer envelope in dense patches...


Also whenever you want an ENV that doesn't lock the voice or in percussive sounds.
Having a sustain stage in en ENV locks the voice until the keys are depressed whereas with a AD the patch doesn't halt during the sustain stage making the voice available without voicestealing. A halt during the sustain stage would also affect the timing in a patch with stuff happening in other modules parallell to a AD.

I'd stick with the AD since it better follows the intended architecture rather than DSP %
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Retroperra



Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just beeing alerted to this project by Sven/3phase (on one of the NM lists) I just have to say that even in beta this is an fantastic project.

Just browsing thru the messages I noted something about measureing waveforms using an oscilloscope.

I have an NM1, with a oscilloscope next to it so if synced/resetted waveforms are needed I can certainly take few pictures of those.

However, this would be a measure at the analogue output jacks so with a negative waveform we still do not really know if the OSCs are positive and the output stage are inverting or if the OSC are negative and the output blocks are non-inverting.

/Per M
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24079
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Retroperra wrote:
However, this would be a measure at the analogue output jacks so with a negative waveform we still do not really know if the OSCs are positive and the output stage are inverting or if the OSC are negative and the output blocks are non-inverting.


The easiest thing to do would be to set the osc real slow and use it to FM or AM something and to then just listen if the waveform is upside down or not.

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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qfingers



Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey,

Here is the changes to g2ools-0.91:

X PitchMod table fixes
X Compressor sidechain not active
X FX-In headroom issue
X Colorize multi-modules
X Logic module gate type wrong
X KBT translation on G2 on when KBT on nm1 off
X Modules using Mix1-1A and ConstSwT defaulted to Off
X PWmod is active, convert sets it active to off (based on Mix1-1A bug above)
X Shape knob still modified when it shouldn't be
X Clock input module set to internal (what to do?)
X Grey input don't get applied for non-grey signals
X PercOscillator has KBT on when it should be off
X NM1 VCA in half setting? (check gabbakey3f1.pch{,2}) (level inverted)
X 3rd Channel of 3Mixer had wrong input level
X various bug fixes based on problems listed above but occur elsewhere.

These were issues posted on the forum without fixes.

- PWmod translated when Saw selected
This one probably works correctly, if you have a cable tied to the PWmod input, this will happen.

- NoteVelScal incorrect
We need a better model for this one.

- Distortion module amp is max (what to do?)
Again a better model is needed.

The application keeps getting better and better. If I've missed a bug, please post it. Also, please post conversion of patches that are cool, have problems, etc. 3phase again was instrumental at submitting bug reports and fixes for various things. BlueHell gave some nice input as well. Anyone else I forgot, sorry.

q
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qfingers



Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Retroperra wrote:
However, this would be a measure at the analogue output jacks so with a negative waveform we still do not really know if the OSCs are positive and the output stage are inverting or if the OSC are negative and the output blocks are non-inverting.


The easiest thing to do would be to set the osc real slow and use it to FM or AM something and to then just listen if the waveform is upside down or not.


A better solution is to just view the waveforms sync'd but at 1.1 times the frequency. That way you see the sync location. Display 2 waveforms, one the syncing oscillator (lower frequency) and the other the sync'd oscillator. I would first make the syncing oscillator a sine, then make the other a saw. Then you can see what phase the sine is in based on the sync position. Also you will be able to see the sawtooth falls or rises. Then I would change the sync'd oscillator to triangle, and square and see where they start. Then set the square pulsewidth to 75% to see where the pulse starts. Of course it needs to be performed on both the NM1 and G2.

q
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: new overdrive model Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A new better model of the Nm1 overdrive...the other was faulty because it havent put highlevels and freq modulation into consideration...

edit. an alternativ version..i think this one is closer...


Nm1Overdrive3.1.pch2
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NM1overDrive3.4.pch2
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Last edited by 3phase on Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject:
Subject description: Blue to Grey
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Based on a building block of Rob Hordijk the improoved version that gives the 3 center octaves and lower with pretty accurate pitch...


BlueToGreyPlus.pch2
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmm.. improoved in the sense that Nm1 and g2 have the same output value...
BUT..as soon i start to work with tuned delay lines its all different...
Why is that?
seems that the delays react very differnt in nm1 and G2...

Ok..i give the answer myself...

the tuning relation changes with the amount of delays or filters used in a patch.. Sad ... amd nm1 and g2 behave different...
The Nm1 delays seem to be filterd internaly.. probably the reason that the behave different regarding the finetuning..

So an area for handtweaking..

at least..the blue/grey buildingblock with the 2 scalers is easier to tune than earlier models...
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W.T.



Joined: Jul 11, 2004
Posts: 272
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: g2ools-0.91 nm1 to g2 converter Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:
Someone wanted a DX7 to G2 converter. This package is built with things like this in mind. It should be easy to build from this package.


Yes please wave
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