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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Wish List
Polyphonic Voice Allocation Options
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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:02 am    Post subject: Polyphonic Voice Allocation Options
Subject description: Need for a "repeat" mode
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Currently the G2 polyphonic voice allocation mode seems to be limited to only one - "rotate" - each new note triggers another available patch voice, even if the same note is played. There needs to be an option to select another voice allocation mode - "repeat" - that will retrigger the same poly voice if the same note is played. Some older synths use this repeat mode - like the SCI Prophet-5. The Oberheim OB-Mx has the ability for either voice allocation mode to be selected.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Playing long evolving sounds, the retriggering shuts down the sound abrupt. I'm not in favor of such, in fact, I dislike it very much. So, what is the use of such a feature?

Wout
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varice



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Playing long evolving sounds, the retriggering shuts down the sound abrupt. I'm not in favor of such, in fact, I dislike it very much.


Actually, the repeat mode does not restart the envelopes at zero. Neither rotate or repeat mode will unless you intentionally change the envelope mode switch from "N" to "R". Here is what the G2 help file says about the envelope generator N/R button:

Quote:
By default, when you release a key and then press it again, the envelope will restart the attack stage at the current release level and not from zero. This is normally the behavior you would want in an amplitude envelope. However, for pitch and filter envelopes it’s often more desirable if the envelope always restarts at zero level. Click the N/R button to force the envelope to always restart the attack stage at zero level


Wout Blommers wrote:
So, what is the use of such a feature?


This repeat mode becomes desirable only when there is something unique about each voice in the patch that you want to remain consistent while repeating the same notes. The most common thing I like the repeat mode for is when there are two or more oscillators per voice that are slightly detuned, slowly going in and out of phase. With the repeat mode, replaying the same note triggers the same voice and the phase change of the oscillators remains consistent. The current rotate mode will always assign a new voice even when the same note is played and each new voice will most likely be at a different part of the in/out phase cycle of the oscillators. This sounds disjointed and usually undesirable to me. The difference between the repeat and rotate mode is very noticable when playing arpeggios.

I posted a G2 performance "Shade Tree" that started out as an experiment in consistent polyphonic voice allocation (needs to be loaded into an expanded G2):

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-11750.html

Slot A contains a lead patch set to 8 voices being played by a sequencer that playes 8 notes on each loop. Each voice in the patch has slightly detuned ocsillators and each voice is being randomly panned in stereo by a slowly changing signal. So, each time through the sequencer loop, each note retriggers the same patch voice. This sort of illustrates the effect of the repeat mode, except that this effect relies on the number of notes and voices instead of the note number. The intended effect fails if the voice count or notes per loop count is changed.

This performance would act a bit differently if the Slot A patch could be set to repeat mode. The random note generator often has repeated notes in the 8 note sequence. If only three different notes happen to be set in the 8 note sequence, a repeat mode would only be triggering 3 voices!

The Slot B bass patch has a similar voice allocation effect using 4 voices.

Sorry for the long reply. I'm sure it took me longer to write this than it would take a Clavia software engineer to write the code for a repeat mode voice allocation function! Laughing

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Christophe Duquesne



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with Varice....

In fact, the drawback pointed out by Wout is sometimes an advantage.
In the current mode, if you use your sustain pedal, keep a chord on the right hand and play/replay your left hand (to move a filter thanks to velocity for example), your right hand chord will quickly disappear ... and you you will get an ugly stack of notes on your left hand.... the "repeat mode" solves this, and open other way of playing ... concerning the envelope restart, a "polyphonic legato" is then useful....

Of course, the wish is not to have only repeat mode, but both repeat OR round mode

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Poly glide works better with repeat mode. Just a couple of options on the system menu, right next to the velocity curve selection Smile
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davep



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"Repeat same voice" mode is very important for some types of patches and some types of playing styles. For example, if you are trying to synthesize anything that is played like a mandolin or a hammered dulcimer, with the same note getting played many times in rapid succession. Without this mode, whereby the same voice would be used over again on the same note, this playing style will quickly start robbing voices from any sustaining chord notes to play the repeated note, destroying any sustaining chords.

And it's not just an issue with voice robbing. Any patch that is supposed to behave like a piano, a harp, or just about ANY real acoustic polyphonic instrument should have an option for this "repeat same voice' behavior. Otherwise, even if you had unlimited voices and voice robbing wasn't a problem, you still have the problem of the new repeating notes overlapping the releases of the old notes instead of shutting them off and starting again, which is a very unrealistic effect for these types of patches. For example, when you pluck the same string twice on a harp, you don't hear the first note continuing to decay layered under the new note, the new note stops the old note and you only hear one note at a time on any given pitch. Any polyphonic acoustic instruments that have any amount of natural volume release time will suffer from this unrealistic behavior when playing the same note in rapid succession while the old note is still decaying.

I've mentioned this to Clavia a couple of times. along with some other wishlist ideas for additional voice allocation modes like Pitch Ordered (so that polyphonic portamento sounds musical, not just like pitches sliding from seemingly random starting points). I'm hoping some of this stuff will eventually make it into the G2. These are the kinds of things that can really add a lot to an instruments playability.

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Sander_k



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi guys, interesting topic, a bit old, but still like to contribute Smile

I've also been checking the G2 voice behaviour, and did find out the G2 always round robin's the sequence, for as long as no same note is played right after the previous one. And with all patches with more than 1 voice, it always starts at "voice nr 2" no matter how many voices selected.

but how does the G2 decides to leave the RR pattern, and starts alter(n)ating?

f.i. a patch with 4 voices allocated, where 4 notes from 1 note+gate sequencer are sent to its own slot via midi Notesend module
(this to keep polyphony cycling, sending to a OSC pitch input makes mono), the following happens:

notes a,b,c,d,a will give 2,3,4,1,2,3 and so on

notes a,b,a,b,c,d,a will also give 1,2,3,4,1 the G2 doesn't seem to care for same notes that close to each other and happily keeps cycling. Also the release of the envelope has no effect on the sequence. It just starts and seems only resettable to "voice 2" when changing voices from mono -> back to 4 voices. By manually cycling the sequence, ofcourse you can get it to start at 1, or you can start your patch with Value 4,8,12,0

Then I repeat one note a,A,b,c,d,a. This will kick in the alteration of the pattern on the voice allocation and will mess up the pattern. However, there seems to be no constant in WHEN the G2 decides to alterate the sequence.. it can happen after 4 rounds, 16, 24..

But then.. I make the note sequence: A,B,B,D and this makes the voices cycle: 1,2,2,4,1,3,3,4 constantly. A,B,C,D,D makes 2,3,1,1,2,3,4,4.Then A 3 voice patch gives 2,11,2,33 So the place in the sequence where the note is doubled dóes matter.

then I also found, 9-10 times I get the alterated voice sequence be restored to 1,2,3,4 as soon as the repeated same note (which messed the sequence up in the 1st place) is repeated again.. and then quickly select another note for the double one before the next round, seems to do it.

Last but not least, when setting the gate (value-)sequencer to all 1's, 2's etc makes the voice selection stop completely.. that makes only 1 voices get repeated, check Patch nr3. Or am I missing something? And it's not really 1 voice?


poly-seq-test.pch2
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varice



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sander_k wrote:
Hi guys, interesting topic, a bit old, but still like to contribute Smile ...

I typed up a reply to your original post only to find that you later heavily edited that post to the point where my reply was no longer relevant. Oh well… Rolling Eyes

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Sander_k



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm sorry Rolling Eyes I kept revising my post, bad habit of mine..

Still curious as to what you're about to reply. For instance, do you think it's the same voice repeated, or is it just 'the sound' itsself that's just being gated in patch nr 3? Perhaps I got too enthousiastic bout the idea that I want it to be true Smile
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varice



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sander_k wrote:
...do you think it's the same voice repeated, or is it just 'the sound' itsself that's just being gated in patch nr 3?...

No, connecting the sequencer trigger output to the envelope will trigger all four voices to sound at the same time, not just one voice.

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