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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
How to improve G2 kick drums...
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sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: How to improve G2 kick drums... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I play multiple kick drum sounds on the G2, sometimes the initial 'click' is removed or boosted when drums are played close to each other (in time). (Even when the drum oscillators are synced so they always start in the same place of the waveform).

After recording this and looking at the audio waveform, I noticed that this happens because the previous kick has not yet finished and so the next drum starts at the wrong amplitude and this alters the initial transient.

Will any of the Logic modules help me to insert a tiny gap (in audio) before each drum trigger in a sequencer? Or maybe I need to affect the actual oscillator to stop this? Or... does anyone know any other way to irradicate this variation in the initial transients?

I have attached a basic patch that demonstrates this problem.


kick problem.pch2
 Description:
patch demonstrating variation in intial transients of basic kick drum.

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 Filename:  kick problem.pch2
 Filesize:  1.98 KB
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That is not easy to fix.
This attempt duplicates your basic kick and uses a flipflop so that the two kicks take 'turns'. Another pair of envelopes is used to ensure only one is on at a time but with a 12ms fade out.
Hopefully someone will have a better idea.


kick_problem_try.pch2
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 Filename:  kick_problem_try.pch2
 Filesize:  2.57 KB
 Downloaded:  690 Time(s)

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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: How to improve G2 kick drums... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
Will any of the Logic modules help me to insert a tiny gap (in audio) before each drum trigger in a sequencer? Or maybe I need to affect the actual oscillator to stop this? Or... does anyone know any other way to irradicate this variation in the initial transients?

I have attached a basic patch that demonstrates this problem.


I ve no G2 online wright now..but what happens when you envelop the whole BD sound again like with a gate...with a normals ADSR in reset mode? maybe this compensates for the phenomen by the little initial attack time of the secondary vca?
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How about using a regular ADSR controling a seperate VCA.... In that case you can LPF the ADSR's curve which will prevent if from jumping values too quickly if it's reset. This will also make you lose the option of having a very short attack butt that can be compensated for by using a paralel AD envelope that's controling noise. The second envelope would be for the initial click and that one would be so short that it's very unlikely to ever be reset while it's running.

This way you won't have to depend on osc-reset for a punchy attack either. osc-reset is also a cause of clicking at the end of the previous drum and you won't need to depend on that for the next if that moment will be masked by the click of the noise anyway.

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sheridan



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks guys... I was hoping for a simple fix... oh dear. Smile

Ian, I have to say that your idea works well, but the kick drums I use in performances can be quite DSP heavy (12+ modules), so this could be a problem to implement on a 'fully fledged' kick. Sad

Sven, I tried a variety of additional envelopes, but it made little or no difference... I did notice that even when I raised the attack, so there was no initial click, the click still remained, meaning that it actually happens at the end of the sound and not the start. If you remove some event triggers from the sequencer, you can hear this more clearly... the spaced out kicks have no click and only the close ones have it.

Kassen, I tried out your method too, but to no avail. Sad The LPF on the env didn't make much/any difference, probably because of the above mentioned fact the the click happens BEFORE the next drum sounds.

Am I being stupid here, or isn't the reset env mode supposed to solve this problem??? Bugger! Confused

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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
Am I being stupid here, or isn't the reset env mode supposed to solve this problem??? Bugger! Confused

I don't want to answer affirmatively Wink, but I think that in monophonic mode the reset env mode logically causes the problem (depending on the fase of the signal at that moment). It cuts immediately back to zero if it's not finished yet but a new trigger comes in. With increased polyphony it would not cut out like that, but that's not practical/economical for percussion patches. I don't see an obvious solution without affection timing or polyphony (but that may not say much about the real possibilities Wink)

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:

Kassen, I tried out your method too, but to no avail. Sad The LPF on the env didn't make much/any difference, probably because of the above mentioned fact the the click happens BEFORE the next drum sounds.


I don't think so; the envelope's output is just a voltage and the LPF treats a continuous signal so it doesn't realy matter at what stage the click happens. If there's still a click the LPF will need to be set lower, if it didn't affect it much it clearly needs to go WAY lower. I guarantee you that the click won't be as clicky anymore if the LPF goes low enough but obviously at a certain point it'll just make a blur out of the whole envelope shape which can't be desireable either.

I'm not sure exactly *how low* but the G2's LPF's can go quite low if you set them to their lowest setting, then apply negative modulation on top of that.

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varice



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Most of the click noise appears to be caused by the trigger sync resetting the oscillator. Do you really need to reset the oscillator?

If you want to keep the oscillator reset, then I would suggest that you add a low pass filter to the output of the oscillator (before the amp env). Set the LPF slope and freq to taste.

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sheridan



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Varice, you're right... the problem with not syncing the oscillator is that as it is free to oscillate (not in time with the music), the click will still only appear on some kick sounds.

I usually use the LPF method and use another oscillator to produce the mid/top end, but this introduces phase problems... arghhhh! Confused

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Falk



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:51 am    Post subject: 12 msec delay anyone? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Does this help at all?

Using a delayed trigger signal to sync and trigger the normal envelopes and the non delayed signal to duck the signal chain.

Not really pretty....

/Falk


kick_problem.pch2
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 Filename:  kick_problem.pch2
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sheridan



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, nice solution Falk. Smile The only problem is that the delay puts the drum out of sync with everything else. Sad I suppose I could add delay modules to all the other sequencers. Confused
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transformer Sheridan

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Falk



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, well you basic problem here is that Clavia failed to implement that really useful module that predicts what is going to happen in the future Very Happy

You might want to mention that in the wish list forum....

/Falk
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Falk wrote:
Yeah, well you basic problem here is that Clavia failed to implement that really useful module that predicts what is going to happen in the future Very Happy


Like the ms20 ESP section. Rolling Eyes
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davep



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you can do without the osc sync, here's an idea borrowed from comments here and from Rob H's old fast transient generator idea for creating audio-rate transients on the old NM:

1. omit the osc hard sync so the osc is not creating any of the click element.

2. Re-create the click element in a separate circuit with a few controls for fine-tuning the effect:

- Use the sequencer's gate outs to trigger a fast logic pulse. Varying the width of the pulse between 0.1msec and about 2msec will give a variety of click timbres.

- process this pulse through a DC-blocking HPF so that it gives a fast transient that quickly settles back to zero, rather than having a flat top like a square wave. If the pulse is set too long and the HPF cutoff is too low, you'll hear a FLAM effect because you're hearing two clicks - the rising and falling edges of the pulse.

- a separate volume control for this click effect.


kick_problem_FIX.pch2
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 Filename:  kick_problem_FIX.pch2
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