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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
The secret of the NL2 sound, and how to emulate it with a G2
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:25 am    Post subject: The secret of the NL2 sound, and how to emulate it with a G2 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I own both the G2 and the Nord Rack 2, and I have noticed that the lead has a unique sound that I can not emulate with the G2.

I wonder, what is so special about the Nord lead that sounds so different? Is it the DAC? the envelopes? even the most basic sound sounds different, more punchy, why?

Does anybody know? This is a question for the experts out there... Smile

Cheers

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I made some investigation to an emulation of the NL2 on the G2. There is a thread somewhere. Wait, I'll use the search option Smile

What I found so far...
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-91759.html#91759
and
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-17562.html

Hey, in both threads you are there already!
But I also made some research of the LFO's and the Envelopes. They are out there too, I think.

My best findings:
the G2 sounds much more defined, more clear the the NL2;
the Unison is hard to create;
most sounds using Saw waves and triangle waves sound simular, Pulse wave is very hard (Most NL2 sounds are Pulse waves).

My conclusion:
why emulate a NL2 as you already have a NL2 Smile
(Which still doesn't say anything about your question, right?)

Wout
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Wout!

Now that you mentioned them, I remember those threads. In fact, I have your sawbrass patch installed in my G2 as a preset. Very Happy

I'm not specifically interested in emulating the NL2 with my G2 since as you said I own both, but what I really want is to understand why simple basic waveforms and envelopes can sound so different in both machines. Trying to emulate the sound can help me understand what's involved in the sound quality.

I'm only searching for knowledge Very Happy

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lets work together...

In a week from now I have a nine day holiday and my wife hasn't Smile

Wout
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As an owner of both synths, can you pick a patch that best illustrates this difference then post a short wav of each?
If the difference is just down to the antialiasing algo's, then probably nothing can be done without an update from Clavia.

There might be some differences that can be emulated on the G2.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, first one who 'almost' sounds the same...

Wout


0001SawBrassV205.pch2
 Description:
Difference of Unison

Download
 Filename:  0001SawBrassV205.pch2
 Filesize:  4.91 KB
 Downloaded:  1372 Time(s)


0001SawBrass.syx
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  0001SawBrass.syx
 Filesize:  139 Bytes
 Downloaded:  254 Time(s)

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nah, these can't possibly sound the same - even the file size differs Shocked Laughing

Still, I 'd like to check it, but I have nothing understanding syx files, could you maybe make some short wavs Wout (like Ian suggested)?

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not at the moment...
You know what mess my studio can be, Jan Smile

Maybe one of the other two can do it, if you're in a hurry.

Wout
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
hurry.


Who, me? I can wait till next week Very Happy

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfortunately I don't have both machines in the same place, one is at home and the other is at work, so I can not make A to B comparisons or recordings with the same equipment.

What should I record by the way?

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sheridan



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dorremifasol wrote:
What should I record by the way?


It might be an idea to record short examples of the different oscillator shapes (no filters/effects) of the two synths and direct comparisons can be made using an oscilliscope, or just by zooming into the waveform in an audio editor.

Even slight variances in the shapes can account for different sounds, but might be emulatable on the G2. I'm not so sure how you could compare the filters though... they could easily account for the difference in sound too.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
dorremifasol wrote:
What should I record by the way?


It might be an idea to record short examples of the different oscillator shapes (no filters/effects) of the two synths and direct comparisons can be made using an oscilliscope, or just by zooming into the waveform in an audio editor.

Even slight variances in the shapes can account for different sounds, but might be emulatable on the G2. I'm not so sure how you could compare the filters though... they could easily account for the difference in sound too.


Yes, that is good.

Or perhaps you could start with just 1 example that you think shows the difference most obviously.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just made jpg's and wav's of the four incommen (five, actually) wave forms: sine, triangle, saw, pulse 50% and pulse 98% (99%) is almost nothing in the G2)

Wout


WaveFormsNL2&G2.zip
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 Filename:  WaveFormsNL2&G2.zip
 Filesize:  556.12 KB
 Downloaded:  307 Time(s)

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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout, have you recorded the samples in the NL2 with the LP24db filter? Because the sound is different when you use the LP12db, even if the cutoff frequency is maxed.

In the samples you recorded the G2 is brighter, but I'm sure that it's because the reason I explained before.

I'm using the G2 demo to compare sound, and I'm unable to recreate the same ADSR envelopes. I think that they are one of the biggest differences as they are involved in the filter and volume "liveness". The filter is quite different too.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not sure anymore, because these recordings I made allready a couple month ago in another thread (about strange scope readings, due to filter resonance)

Well, the G2 recfordings are without any filter, though Wink

This evening I will make some recordings using both with the same filter. Should I take the 24dB Nord filter?

Wout
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I suppose that in order to get the maximum recording of the original oscillator signal you should record the 12db filter instead of the 24db one.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dorremifasol wrote:
I suppose that in order to get the maximum recording of the original oscillator signal


The oscillators look pretty much identical to me ... having seemingly "perfect" (or analytic) wave forms.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, just in case...

Wout


NL2_New_WaveForm_Recordings&Pictures.zip
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I'm more lost now than before...

Even while they look almost exactly the same, they sound different.

By the way, I use always headphones (AKG K271 studio), and the difference is notable with them.


saws.jpg
 Description:
comparing g2 and nl2 saws
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saws.jpg



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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What is the difference?
I listen closely to both Saw waves...
Is one sharper, rounder, softer, more narrow or something like that?

I don't hear any differences, although I'm an old man Smile

I still think the differences between both synths are the DAC's and their parameter values, so together the sound is different.
I play the NordLead3 with Patches where almost all parameters are assigned to the Morphes, only not the Keyboard Morph. There are alot of extremes there...

Wout
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dasz



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It sounds to me like there is some dithering/brightness/noise differences between the 2. The difference is similar across each pair of waveform comparisons. Just my $0.02 CDN or USD (or $0.0206 CDN Smile )

/Dasz

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Jason



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

interesting thread Very Happy
I have wondered such things myself, in terms of the differences.
I will have a listen just too for fun and educational purposes.
Thanks
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3phase



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

not possible...i would wish that this changes in an update because in the end of the day the old internal leveling sounds better...
and that is what i guess makes the different... its overload and feedback situations where the old algos sound sweeter..

there are however many sounds that can be made allmost identical by parameter tweaking..
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
not possible...i would wish that this changes in an update because in the end of the day the old internal leveling sounds better...
and that is what i guess makes the different... its overload and feedback situations where the old algos sound sweeter..
Uhhh... Yeah... Sure... Ehhh.... scratch It's an older thread, so I can't connect this post to another one. Sven, what are you referring to? The update you mention has to be a G2 update, 'cauce I think the NL2(X) will stay 'as is'.
Quote:
there are however many sounds that can be made almost identical by parameter tweaking..
That's for sure! A couple of month ago someone asked to recreate all the factory presets of the NL2X in the G2. There were some idea's about implementing a conversion tool into G2tools (?), but those who had to do it already own both synths, so why the effort? Anyway, there is a lot of tweaking to be done when recreating it.

Wout
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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i thought NL2 and NM1 share the same engine while NL3 and G2 use a new one..isnt that wright?

i was reffering to Nm1 to G2 conversions and expect the same detail difficulties when trying to do perfect NL2 sounds on the G2
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