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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Sending modulation via MIDI control send/receive modules
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TEMAS



Joined: Mar 20, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Sending modulation via MIDI control send/receive modules
Subject description: Resolution is degraded when sending via MIDI
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Hi. If I connect the output from a sinewave LFO to the pitch modulation input of an oscillator I get a smooth sweep across the entire frequency range of the oscillator.

But if I send the same modulation signal via a control send module and a control receive module the resolution of the modulation is inferior, resulting in a slightly glitchy pitch sweep.

I tried putting a glide module after the control receive module, but this is not ideal, unless I also vary the glide time according to speed of the source LFO.

Is this how things should be and if so is there another way to send modulation signals from one slot to another without any loss in resolution?

Cheers.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The only other way I can think of without using a midi send module, is to send the control data via internal slot busses. I do this quite a lot.

Using the DAConv before the bus output and an ADConv on the input bus, you can send 8 logic signals at once over a single bus.

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TEMAS



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks.

So the MIDI control send and receive modules are really only for static control signals? I had never really put them to a full test until today, but it seems they can not deal with anything that is gradually modulating.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Indeed the internal MIDI uses 7 bits only, just like external MIDI would.
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If it's about slower & smooth control signals, you could always use a glide module after the receive.
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TEMAS



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, slower sweeps can sound almost the same with a glide module, so long as the glide time is adjusted to match the speed of the LFO. But fast LFOs don't translate at all.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm ... but if you'd make an LFO speed control pot (constant module) you could transfer the speed value with another MIDI module and then make the glide track .. or with a morph maybe Cool

More resolution would have been easier of course Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Indeed the internal MIDI uses 7 bits only, just like external MIDI would.


Exactly, midi only has 128 values to vary between, impossible to get rid of the stepping.. Just route the lfo using the busses that way you keep it up to the Nords internal sample rate and bit depth.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmmm this made me think about something

... do you guys ev er embed more than one control signal per bus?

I was just thinking using a s/h and a switcher to use a mono bus to send a more (2 or 4) control signals by interlacing them (every 2nd or every 4th sample sent, which would update at 48kHz or 22 kHz respective) over the bus.

You could use a a/d and d/a converter to syncronize the switching on the enconding and decoing end.

has anyone tried it, or does it exist somewhere here on electro-music.com?
/Dasz

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dasz wrote:
hmmm this made me think about something

... do you guys ev er embed more than one control signal per bus?

I was just thinking using a s/h and a switcher to use a mono bus to send a more (2 or 4) control signals by interlacing them (every 2nd or every 4th sample sent, which would update at 48kHz or 22 kHz respective) over the bus.

You could use a a/d and d/a converter to syncronize the switching on the enconding and decoing end.

has anyone tried it, or does it exist somewhere here on electro-music.com?
/Dasz


I use multiplexing very often. Eg., with the DIY arpeggiators, a multiplexing scheme enabled the driver circuit in the FX area to control the detector/player voices individually.

One of the obstacles is that the 1-8Mux and 8-1Mux modules cannot clock at audiorate. This however can be circumvented by using value-switch modules and/or other trickery.

Basically it comes down to using two channels: one carrying the multiplexed signal and another that tells the receiving circuit how to demultiplex it. By using counter circuits for this, any amount of channels can be realised -of course with the sampling frequency changing reciprocally. You can pipe as much stuff through 2 channels as you want, only the respective update rate sinks. Keeping in mind that for most low-frequency modulations an update rate of a few hundred Hz is perfectly sufficient, that means that you can actually do quite alot. (128 channels will still refresh at 750Hz Cool )Especially if you also take into account that you could also use the 24bit resolution as 3x8bit with binary encoding/decoding schemes as well, triple-ing the amount of channels again (if 8bit is sufficient, that is -which it often is actually). So yeah, the possibilities are quite vast. Smile

I patched a quick'n'dirty example of a 8x muxer, piping 8 channels @12 kHz through 2 busses.

cheers,
t

EDIT: I just saw that the input channels in the patch are labeled 1 to 8, the output channel selector knob however goes from 0 to 7. You get the idea. Wink


8x_multiplexerTK.pch2
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8 channels @ 12kHz from 2 busses

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Addendum: The upper example lets you access only one of the multiplexed channels. If you want to have all demuxed channels available simultaneously, this naturally makes things more expensive due to the S/H-Triggering scheme.

Here is the same 8x muxer @ 12kHz, with the comprehensive demuxing stage.

I also included a controlrate version, which is far cheaper because the existing 8-1/1-8 mux/demuxer modules can be used. This however clocks 4x slower, @3 kHz. Still way enough for modulations.

cheers,
t


8x_multiplex2_TK.pch2
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8x_plex_CRate_TK.pch2
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Me again, sorry Rolling Eyes Laughing

After some pondering while driving the car, this is the most efficient way ever, both in mem% and DSP count. It is based on a self-resetting exponential feedback loop hooked up to a ADC module, which thus neatly outputs 8 circular logic gates for muxing/demuxing. Smile


8xMuxer_final_TK.pch2
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TEMAS



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Tim. I finally got around to testing this today and it seems to work great !!! I have been sending multiple LFOs from one patch to another without any noticeable difference in resolution

Just to confirm that I understand the full potential of this patch and to help explain its purpose for others maybe you could clarify that.....

The Mux section (Cycles - 9.3 / Memory - 21.1) can accept up to 8 continuously variable modulation signals or audio signals and sends them simultaneously to any other patches that have the Demux section (Cycles - 2.1 / Memory - 13.3) using just 2 of the audio Bus channels.

This will be incredibly useful in scenarios where you might want to have one patch that contains lots of complex modulation sources and then route them across the modular to modulate parameters in other patches.

Tim - this is really cool - thanks a lot. flower

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dasz



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nice work, tim.
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