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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Kyma
Help turning Paca into Variphrase sampler
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rtech



Joined: Mar 23, 2011
Posts: 8
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject: Help turning Paca into Variphrase sampler Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am wondering if someone out there can give me a good starting point or some tips for creating something similar to Roland's Variphrase sampler. (I know it's not unique to Roland for about the past decade or so, but I think they do it the best.)

I've read through most the manual and am starting to feel a little comfortable using Kyma as well as basic capytalk. When I checked out some of the pitch shifting/ time-stretching "sounds" however, I got kind of overwhelmed. I didn't even go near Tau yet. I'm trying to save anything that uses "analysis" for sometime in the future.

So any advice regarding which sound objects would be the best to start off with and maybe how to approach turning them into a realtime sampling system? I'm looking for a decent pitch shift range (+-2 octaves or so) for the general frequency range or something that's easily selectable to specific timbres. I'm also hoping to control time and pitch independently in realtime including realtime resampling.

Granular synthesis? multi-band vocoder? I'm at the beginning with this so anything helps. Maybe it's simpler than I think??
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Scot Solida



Joined: Oct 24, 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Hutchinson Kansas

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've sold two V-Synths over the past few years, mainly because Kyma can do this stuff so well. Really, however, you're overlooking one of the best ways to do it: the Tau process. To do what Variphrase does, you're going to need to use something that analyzes audio in (keep in mind that Kyma can do this in realtime on incoming audio too) and Tau is a pretty good way to go about it.
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rtech



Joined: Mar 23, 2011
Posts: 8
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the tip about Tau. I remember from my VariOS about the analysis it had to do. Sound like the V-Synth also does this. That's good news if Kyma does this even better because that old VariOS sounded really good.

So is the analysis aspect what primarily separates Tau from some of the other pitch-shifting/time stretching "sounds"?
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Scot Solida



Joined: Oct 24, 2009
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Location: Hutchinson Kansas

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are, of course, other ways to do it in Kyma... spectral resynthesis for one. I suggested Tau because it's fairly quick and easy to get good results. I am not in my studio today, so I can't suggest specific Sounds offhand... you'll have to dig around. I had a VariOS too, actually.. that was some time ago, though!
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rtech



Joined: Mar 23, 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not to stray off topic, but is most of Varios inside the V-Synth. I know that D-50 emulation carried over but how about that Jupiter one... and I think maybe the 303? Is the V-Synth pretty much irrelevant if already working with Kyma and can live without the Roland emulations? Do you think the V-Synth is the updated reincarnation of the D50? That's the vibe I got from messing about with it at the store several years ago.
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Scot Solida



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The V-Synth and VariOS are two different creatures, built on the simpler sampling technology. Yeah, you put a D-50 card in the mkII version of the V-Synth, but, as is the case with the VariOS, you have to reboot the machine as a D-50. The VariOS had the software sequencer thing that allowed you to make arrangements with the samples, that doesn't exist on the V-Synth. The V-Synth is more of a performance instrument. It gives you lots of ways to manipulate your patches live. It really is quite different. Definitely not a modern D-50... that's a description that better fits many of Roland's other instruments over the past twenty years.

I kind of regret selling my V-SynthGT. I liked that performance aspect. I also liked the fact that the entire onboard sample memory was over-writeable, since I rarely ever use anyone else's samples.

Kyma can do all of what both can do, but the trick is that it requires more effort on the user's part - at least initially. Once you've designed and patched your Kyma Sound, you can save it and treat it like a synth unto itself. The performance aspects are all there, too, but you have to supply the controllers. Lately I've been using Kyma Control on the iPad and it's been very cool. You could easily program the "tablet" mode to act like the V-Synth's Time-Trip pad, (I think something like it is already in the Kyma Sound Library). It's good fun.
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ikarus



Joined: Oct 04, 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi guys

is it really possible to say create one device on kyma that can clone a Vsynth engine ? and then by simple selecting different samples it will allow realtime stretching and formant shifting ?i would love to see that Kyma patch or some get a pointer toward library patches.

My own thoughts were that Tau would have to individually scan and analyze each sample you wanted to use before you can go any further ? is there a realtime analyzer in Kyma ? i never found that .

I still use the vsynth and vp 9000 here ( both very different sound wise and also having very different qualities when stretching also.) and i would love to explore Kyma with this side of things .

With vsynth etc i bulk convert / analyze samples so i can quickly browse and try different vocal takes etc but in Kyma i dont think thats so easy >?

the world needs Kyma vsynth patch and i need a link Smile
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ikarus



Joined: Oct 04, 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oops
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taylor12k



Joined: May 04, 2005
Posts: 56
Location: brooklyn

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

are you basically looking for time stretching capabilities?

i've never used a vsynth or variphrase.. what are the parameters you're trying to duplicate?
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BobTheDog



Joined: Feb 28, 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm pretty sure there is not real time tau analysis in Kyma, I could be wrong though as I am no expert!

There is quite a bit that can be done with spectrum stuff though in real time.
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Scot Solida



Joined: Oct 24, 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I forgot about this thread... yeah, if you want realtime analysis, it'll be best to use Kyma's spectral processing. However, if the idea is to emulate the Rolands, then real-time analysis isn't necessary. The Rolands had to perform a non-realtime analysis, too. What you may not be able to do is to devise a way by which analyzed sounds can be accessed instantly from within the VCS (might be possible - I never tried it). I have never created a dedicated V-Synth emulation on the Kyma... I tend to do my Kyma stuff in a fairly piece-meal manner. I have, however made an used Sounds that performed the same functions as various bits of the V-Synth. Keep in mind that there would be no single emulative form that the Sound could take, since the V-Synth itself is semi-modular (you can patch in different filters, effects, oscillator types for each step in the signal path and even reroute them).

However, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with something that does what you wanted... combine a spectral analysis/playback patch with an analog modeling Sound and shuttle them into various filters and effects.

If I have time, I might give it a go this week.

Last edited by Scot Solida on Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Scot Solida



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I should point out that the Tau stuff can do the realtime formant and time/pitch shifting on a pre-analyzed sample, so I am still of the mind that this would be the best starting point.
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ikarus



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scot Solida wrote:
I should point out that the Tau stuff can do the realtime formant and time/pitch shifting on a pre-analyzed sample, so I am still of the mind that this would be the best starting point.


can tau analyze audio files in bulk ? and auto create all the files needed so it would then be more viable to create a bank of sounds as the vsynth does.
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Scot Solida



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is batch processing of samples in Kyma - though I have no idea if it works with the Tau analysis tool or not. I have never tried that (and I am not in the studio at the moment). I'm not sure it would be terribly beneficial to do it that way, since part of what makes Tau processing so useful is the control it gives you over the creation of the Tau and psi files it makes. That's the thing about Kyma: very little is quick or instantaneous. However, the results are usually well worth the extra effort.

I was inspired by this thread to create a custom synth based on Tau files, but my efforts were interrupted by the flu. I'll get back into it when I am well. It isn't a copy of a V-Synth, but is nevertheless designed to perform some similar functions, such as scrubbing through the audio using an iPad or Wacom tablet (in place of the Time-trip pad).
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cebec



Joined: Apr 19, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scot Solida wrote:
There is batch processing of samples in Kyma - though I have no idea if it works with the Tau analysis tool or not. I have never tried that (and I am not in the studio at the moment). I'm not sure it would be terribly beneficial to do it that way, since part of what makes Tau processing so useful is the control it gives you over the creation of the Tau and psi files it makes. That's the thing about Kyma: very little is quick or instantaneous. However, the results are usually well worth the extra effort.


I agree!

However, the Batch Spectral Analysis tool does create Psi files (and Spc and GA, but not Tau). You'll have to do any alignment in the Tau Editor, yourself, unless you're fine with the Psi files on their own.

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