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remork
Joined: Aug 02, 2009 Posts: 25 Location: bhellgium
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:09 am Post subject:
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i'm thinking a resistor/pot in series with the diode should give you saw to tri on the Q3 output. at the same time it would give you 0 - 50 % PWM on the Q2 output.
unfortunately, it would also change the frequency. :/
breadboarding as we speak. thanks synthmonger, simple saw VCO is just what i was looking for! |
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Tomoroh Hidari
Joined: May 04, 2012 Posts: 39 Location: Vienna
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JingleJoe

Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:29 am Post subject:
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That is because the saw wave is only oscillating between the upper and lower bounds of the schmit trigger.
You can simply add an amplifier with offset removal or an input capacitor to remove the DC offset, which will get it up to the desired voltage.
By the way, remork, that doesn't work, it just increases the charge time but sets it to a constant time which does not alter with changing control voltages. I've tried a number of different variants of this VCO, with transistors in the feedback path and all sorts of things, but the initial design is the best. Except that I use an op amp buffer and a comparator for PWM. _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories |
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Tomoroh Hidari
Joined: May 04, 2012 Posts: 39 Location: Vienna
Audio files: 2
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject:
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ah, thanks for the info jinglejoe.
out of curiosity I breaboarded the 'single op-amp version' (http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-49901.html) of this circuit on a second breaboard using one opamp from a 324. rather than using a 100nf (or, as it says in the post 10nf) cap going to ground from the opamp input, I swapped it for a 470nF (I think - need to check again, once i'm at home), as with the 100nf I tried first I didn't get anything below somewhere between (roughly estimated) 700-1000 hz.
interestingly on the opamp version it is exactly the other way round - the saw is louder than the pulse (and i'm starting to suspect there's some logic - sorry, probably not the best word...hm, rather simple electronic principle - behind that as well).
i'm planning on recording both as soon as i manage to have an a/b comparison. i only have a software scope, but i could also try to take some screenshots of the respective waveforms with that, should anybody be interested. _________________ ~~~
http://blog.ivorybunker.com/
http://tomoroh.ivorybunker.com/
http://tomorohhidari.bandcamp.com |
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JingleJoe

Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:44 am Post subject:
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It's likely that the volume of the pulse is due to it's width, it will be nearly non-existant for both circuits but I suspect that it's faster with the op amp because op amps can usually output more current than CMOS, thus charging the cap faster.
Additionally the upper and lower voltage bounds of an op amp schmit trigger are usually higher and lower, respectively, than those of the CMOS variant. _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
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Tomoroh Hidari
Joined: May 04, 2012 Posts: 39 Location: Vienna
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject:
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wow, you really seem to be a walking compendium of electronics knowledge!
anyway, as promised, I did recordings of both circuits - from breadboard into the soundcard. mono, no editing or anything, except cutting the respective parts into single files... I did a sweep over the full range a 100k pot gave me (and some little extra turns towards the end on most files.)
it's, unfortunately, not recognizable in Soundcloud's waveform representation*, but the Schmitt-trigger saw shows obvious dc offset. also the saw waves on both circuits have a rather steep falling flank making them look close to pulses.... didn't get round to taking snapshots with a scope yet, but will try to the next days. anyways, without further ado, here's the audio:
40106 version:
http://soundcloud.com/ivorybunker/vco-40106-saw-21092012
http://soundcloud.com/ivorybunker/vco-40106-pulse-21092012
LM324 version: (this uses a 470nF cap instead of the 100nF in the schem)
http://soundcloud.com/ivorybunker/vco-lm324-saw-21092012
http://soundcloud.com/ivorybunker/vco-lm324-pulse-21092012
I think I definitely want to solder the lm324 soon, but for lunetta purposes it will of course be the 40106. and I was thinking there - would it be possible to use the pulse from that one as clock for a 4017? that should allow to create some sorts of custom wave form or modulation sequence at 1/n of the saw freq, innit?
*i enabled dl so if anyone wants they can have a look at it in a wave editor _________________ ~~~
http://blog.ivorybunker.com/
http://tomoroh.ivorybunker.com/
http://tomorohhidari.bandcamp.com |
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JingleJoe

Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:55 am Post subject:
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Tomoroh Hidari wrote: |
it's, unfortunately, not recognizable in Soundcloud's waveform representation*, but the Schmitt-trigger saw shows obvious dc offset. also the saw waves on both circuits have a rather steep falling flank making them look close to pulses.... didn't get round to taking snapshots with a scope yet, but will try to the next days. |
I'd be interested to see that, I don't quite know what you mean.Do you mean to say that the slope is non-linear? if you used transistor buffers, I suspect them to cause that problem.
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I think I definitely want to solder the lm324 soon, but for lunetta purposes it will of course be the 40106. and I was thinking there - would it be possible to use the pulse from that one as clock for a 4017? that should allow to create some sorts of custom wave form or modulation sequence at 1/n of the saw freq, innit? |
Very good thinking That seems entirely possible although sometimes the pulse is a bit low or funny shaped so it's an idea to run the pulse out of the 40106 VCO into a different 40106 inverter to buffer it and to get it back up to voltage. Then that will drive the 4017 clock nicely. _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
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JingleJoe

Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:08 am Post subject:
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I Had a look at your audio files with an oscilloscope, that weird shaped saw wave could be due to filtering effects, is there any capacitance in your signal path? The filtering in question may even be in your sound card although I doubt that as I've used mine with very very low frequency stuff with no problem.
P.S. you can also play tunes by moving the seekbar in your media player to different points in the sound file  _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories |
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Tomoroh Hidari
Joined: May 04, 2012 Posts: 39 Location: Vienna
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:35 am Post subject:
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I think I found out where the weird waveshape came from - I usually have this behringer 'tube ultragain" preamp between my breadboard out and soundcard/mixer in... it's the part of my equipment I wouldn't miss too much if anything bad were to happen. usually I have it in "neutral" mode without any preamp gain - anyway - looking at the signal going directly into the soundcard things are looking differently. (as in 'good')
had a try last night triggering a 4040 from the pulse out - which gave nice sub-squares and also triggering a 40106 rc osc... didn't make any recordings though and went to sleep after things stopped functioning one modification attempt later. taking up things now and trying to get that beast on perfboard... _________________ ~~~
http://blog.ivorybunker.com/
http://tomoroh.ivorybunker.com/
http://tomorohhidari.bandcamp.com |
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jackdamery
Joined: Apr 26, 2010 Posts: 75 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:58 am Post subject:
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Would the expo convertor transistors work better if matched for hFe? |
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alkopop79
Joined: Aug 21, 2008 Posts: 44 Location: London
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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:09 am Post subject:
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Any progress on the exponential converter? I've tried it with 0-9V and it doesn't seem to work at all. |
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beep

Joined: May 05, 2013 Posts: 104 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:44 pm Post subject:
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here are some single supply expo converters,
perhaps it works with one of them
 _________________ Is the future obsolete? |
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JingleJoe

Joined: Nov 10, 2011 Posts: 878 Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:04 am Post subject:
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Those circuits look like they'll be really useful! though some require odd values, and I am a little confused by the 0.01 ohm input resistor, care to elaborate?
also that 10 ohm output resistor suggests that it draws a lot of current at the output which is going to create a lot of noise on the power supply if you modulate it at high frequencies (like above 10Hz)  _________________ As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"
Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories |
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elektrouwe
Joined: May 27, 2012 Posts: 109 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:37 am Post subject:
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yes, these circuits can be useful, if you understand how they work and which of the transistors should be thermally coupled and/or matched.
The circuits don't require odd values. This schematic is made for simultaneous
SPICE simulation of some expo variants. It is common practice to insert small resistors to "measure" currents e.g. in LTSPICE, a mouse click on a resistor pin shows immediately the current flowing through this pin. Milliohm values simulate source resistances of a power supply or other non-resistive components (L,C,wire...). These components never show up
in the real circuit. |
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beep

Joined: May 05, 2013 Posts: 104 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject:
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could anyone, please, give me some advice, how to add one of these to the CV input of the VCO?
I'm using the design from Hendrik/metal_head
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-49901.html
I have no idea how to add it correctly to the circuit
greetings _________________ Is the future obsolete? |
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gasboss775

Joined: Jan 02, 2016 Posts: 188 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:33 pm Post subject:
Re: 40106 Subject description: VCO |
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ELEKTRICGASCHIEF wrote: | Another way of making a VCO with the 40106 is to vary the supply voltage. The relationship is far from linear and is also inversely proportional, that is the output frequency falls as the supply voltage is increased.
The other issue is that of the output amplitude varying with control voltage, if you are using the squarewave output it is easy to convert to a fixed output using 1 npn transistor as a switch, if you wish to utilise the saw / tri waveform on the capacitor this can be corrected with a subsequent vca. I used the six schmitt triggers toghether feeding a diode clipper to produce a complex atonal sound.
see below: |
Hello ELEKTRICGASCHIEF you are me in a previous incarnation I'd like to thank you for posting this such that I may now recover this schematic! |
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