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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » G2 Patches - Experimental
371 years LFO
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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 1017
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
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G2 patch files: 211

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: 371 years LFO Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was thinking about the numerical resolution of the G2 system in relation to its sampling rate, which, among other things, is the reason why the slowest LFO speed is 699 seconds (2^24/24000).

So, as a thought experiment, I made a DIY sawtooth LFO with a cycle time of 371 years.

Why?

Because I can. Laughing

EDIT: The 6.23 billion years LFO available upon request. Just 6 more modules.


371 years LFO.pch2
 Description:

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 Filename:  371 years LFO.pch2
 Filesize:  1.44 KB
 Downloaded:  63 Time(s)


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Blue Hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20273
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 143
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think 699 s is a bit short at times .. 371 years would be too much for most practical purposes ... but lets say one hour or a day maybe and then with some different wave forms .. i could actually use that I guess.

Had a quick look at the patch .. could use a couple of lines of how it works ... and how I could change the speed.

In the past I've used another way to make things slow BTW ... using a delay controlled with a saw .. that is .. downsampling an LFO.

For random I'd now use a sample and hold I guess .. but would be nice then if the smoothing could be set to be really long too ...

Anyways .. just some babblings

6 point how many billion years Shocked you're nuts Laughing I'd like to see that one too tho ... but again .. with a couple of comment lines please.

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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 1017
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 6
G2 patch files: 211

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It was just a little thought experiment using two nested counter circuits counting the smallest possible increment within the 24 bit numerical system @24kHz. Counting to 2^48 at 24000 times a second takes 371 years. Laughing The 6 billion version would simply add another counter stage. (2^72)

I'll have to (happily) eat my words though pertaining the G2 LFOs, because some further testing revealed that their internal counters DO in fact seem to have an even higher resolution than 24 bit after all. Meaning: If you simply apply a negative constant to the LFO mod input, it goes even slower than the slowest base setting of 669 seconds.
The mod inputs can take a maximum of +/- 64 units and track exponentially (unattenuated). So, if the math still is correct at these low rates, a -12 constant (12 semitones or an octave lower) should drop the LFO frequency by half, -24 by four, etc. -60 (5 octaves, or factor 32) should give you 5.94 hours, and -64 even more than that.

I haven't measured it precisely (*), but it's definitely running waaay slower. Try it.

Come to think of it, in this case one could patch the 6 billion years LFO simply with two LFO modules (using the concept of interference and modulating the phase of one with the other). Laughing

(*) EDIT: I tested it and it is robust. The test patch below demonstrates a sawtooth LFO at 669 seconds and another one tuned down 5 octaves and its range boosted by factor 32 -both modulating test oscillators panned L and R. The pitches match up perfectly. Well done, Clavia. thumb up


slow LFO test.pch2
 Description:
Testing the tracking of LFOs at slowest rates. See topic for discussion.

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 Filename:  slow LFO test.pch2
 Filesize:  1.3 KB
 Downloaded:  62 Time(s)


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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Location: Zürich, Switzerland
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G2 patch files: 211

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Addendum to the post above:

Blue Hell wrote:
but would be nice then if the smoothing could be set to be really long too ...

The random modules appear to unfortunately simply stop running completely when pushed below 669 seconds with a negative constant.

Of course, one could use a random LFO, but I've never been a fan of those because the smoothing is too fast, resulting in gaps where nothing happens.

Here's an elegant solution for deriving an uniformly smooth random LFO from a sawtooth LFO, neatly using the 'Clk' output to clock the random numbers and the ramp signal to linearly interpolate between them.


DIYSmthRndLFO_TK.pch2
 Description:
Deriving an uniformly smooth random LFO from a sawtooth LFO

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 Filename:  DIYSmthRndLFO_TK.pch2
 Filesize:  1.19 KB
 Downloaded:  64 Time(s)


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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Tim! This topic is very interesting. Since few days, I studied in detail the numerical resolution and the sampling rate of the G2.


Quote:
some further testing revealed that their internal counters DO in fact seem to have an even higher resolution than 24 bit after all.

Is it true for Osc modules too ? I mean can I get better resolution than 0.0057 Hz ? Or I mix apples with oranges ?!

Quote:
If you simply apply a negative constant to the LFO mod input, it goes even slower than the slowest base setting of 669 seconds.

You're right. I had already noticed that

Quote:
The 6.23 billion years LFO available upon request. Just 6 more modules.

6.23 billion years LFO .. haha yes, time goes so fast now ! Laughing



I played a bit with the speed in the "371_years_lfo" patch.

variation1: normal (you can change the speed with the mod wheel)
variation2: fast
variation3: faster
variation4: the starting point is changed
variation5-8 : tests


371_years_lfo_121_SpeedTest12.pch2
 Description:

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 Filename:  371_years_lfo_121_SpeedTest12.pch2
 Filesize:  1.46 KB
 Downloaded:  74 Time(s)

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dorremifasol



Joined: Sep 28, 2006
Posts: 768
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great! I'm going to start testing it. Excuse me if I die before showing any results! Wink
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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 6
G2 patch files: 211

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:

Is it true for Osc modules too ? I mean can I get better resolution than 0.0057 Hz ? Or I mix apples with oranges ?!

I don't know. There are at least two potential bottlenecks here. The resolution of the counter is one thing, but the other is the lin-expo conversion math for the incremental value. The upward detune factor of a given frequency for one cent is the 1200th root of 2. Resolution issues therefore ,logically, are bigger at low frequencies.

What I do know for sure is that the oscillators will, with correct settings, accurately track the keyboard, even in the sub-audio range. This discovery made it possible for me to optimize my granular synthesis algorithms, and thus throw in more features (individual multimode filter per grain). So I guess the oscillators, too, have pretty good resolution.

Quote:
I played a bit with the speed in the "371_years_lfo" patch.

Cool. Smile It's just a counter circuit, easy to speed up. We'd better, otherwise Albert (dorremifasol) is gonna die before showing any results. Laughing

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Roland Kuit



Joined: Sep 29, 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very Happy
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Roland Kuit
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drapdap



Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 193
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nice patch... mp3 demo? Very Happy

can you estimate the lifetime of a g2? Very Happy
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