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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
tactile waveshaper idea
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mike page



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:12 am    Post subject: tactile waveshaper idea Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok so if this works at all it would be sketchy as hell, still recon I might try it out tho! The 4060 is running at a high audio rate and the 4 fastest bits go to both 4067s.

You move the chain around to make different waveforms!
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RingMad



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Haha, I was thinking of some kind of tactile waveshaper a while back, but none of my ideas (mostly forgotten now) seemed viable or were too much trouble. This crazy idea might just work!

I wonder though if it would be better to have some sort of solid line conductor instead of the chain, since the chain makes multiple contacts on the same piece of tape... not sure if that affects much, though.

I'm curious about your results if you do actually build it!

.:james:.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice idea Razz
I think that in theory it should work, at least circuit wise. However I think that you are going to run into some problems if you built it.
I have tried VHS tape to make a ribbon controller before but was unable to find any that had some conductivity. I know it does exist
but it will have a rather high resistance and it probably wouldn't make a decent electrical connection with a chain. But give it a try I'd
love to hear the result if it works.

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mike page



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah i tested out a few VHS tapes a while ago and only a 10 minute one had a measurable resistance. Maybe the special short ones were better quality?...

Oh and I thought that if you put the 4067's out of sync (for example running 2 4520's for the data, 1 counting to 15, one counting to 16) then it would probably do some undulating waveshaping something, right?
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RingMad



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I probably went through 25 or 30 VHS tapes, different brands, pre-recorded, etc. and only found 1 or 2 that had a usable resistance per distance.

The best was some wider broadcast format VHS tape. If I put a probe on the extreme edge of the tape, then I get the following measurements, moving the other probe away from the edge: at 1 cm : 80k, 10 cm: 162k, 15 cm: 212k, 20 cm: 260k. One can't seem to get lower than a certain value.
Also, when I first tested it years ago, I wrote "10 cm = 110k", so I wonder if the tape itself is consistent (maybe it depends on what was recorded on it?)

And not to go too off-topic, but if you want to make a ribbon controller, then tape is not that great because it will wear and stretch. I finally just bought a proper softpot membrane potentiometer (e.g. by spectra symbol) and it's much more reliable.

.:james:.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

maybe instead of video tapes you could do something with pencil lead.
I am pretty sure it is much more conductive but it is also rather brittle.

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mike page



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

good thought! Or some etextiles resistive fabric stuff
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oh ofcourse, I sometimes forget we are already living in the future where we have car in space.
I am only somewhat familiar with the conductive fabric which I think has copper or something woven
into the material. I don't know if there is stuff which actually has a useful resistance. There is also paint
and of course there is resistance wire to keep it simple. I also saw there are full graphite pencils available.

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synaesthesia



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Never found any magnetic tape that had a useful resistance. But the resistive strips from electric heating mats work great.
Have a look at this thread http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-67130-0.html&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=softpot
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

somehow I must have missed that thread, nice job on the ribbon controller, I might make use of that circuit someday.

Never thought about heating mats but if you can manage to get it seperated that seems like a nice solution.
I was actually looking for something to warm up a plant pot and I know there are big heating mats but forgot you
can also get small ones (for warming cups and other things). I did do a search and I found some cheap ones
on ebay
. They have copper contacts attached and you might be able to cut them into strips. They are only 6x8cm
though so I am not sure if that is large enough for this waveshaper idea (or what the resistence is) but there are
probably larger ones available as well. If I order some I will do some tests. (I already have a very small chain)

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Last edited by PHOBoS on Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mike page



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject:
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great suggestions! I'll bloody make it then.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I received the heating pads today but I think they're useless for this application. The pads are made of a mesh of very thin carbon
strands that are sandwitched between 2 layers of plastic which has two small holes punched into it to access the copper strips.
I tried seperating the plastic but the carbon is glued to it so you end up with 2 pads that have the copper strips between the carbon
and the plastic. I don't think soldering to it will really work but I might give it a try. The total resistance seems to be around 10 ohms
but will of course be higher if you cut it into strips. It will probably not be very linear across the surface though.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remember Les Hall chatting about 3D printing and saying that there is a conductive (resistive I believe) filament available.

I'd bet it's possible to lay out a system like this with a 3D printer and the conductive filament.

I've never played with 3D printing or the filament, but I also wonder if it's possible to use the filament without a 3D printer, as in to lay it out and simply glue, staple or otherwise fasten it to a hard substrate insulating material such as wood or plastic. Of course, a challenge would be connecting wires to it, but there's a lot of clever people here.

OR - Ask Les to get involved and see if he can print such a thing - I believe he has conductive filament. Should be simple - flat plastic bottom with strips of conductive plastic narrowly spaced. The filament is narrow enough that some decent resolution might be obtained.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Of course a similar (tho not as tactile) device could be made with a load of slide pots instead (also would only need one 4067 going to the centre taps of the pots)...
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RingMad



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remembered this other thread about another approach to a resistive strip...

frijitz described a sort of paint one could make in this thread under Musical Interfaces >> DIY ribbon :
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-55720.html

Here's a quick overview of it, quoting frijitz:
"Most glues and paints can be loaded with powdered graphite to make them conductive.

The materials I ended up using are easy to find locally. They are acrylic ink (or paint) from the art supply / hobby store, fine powdered graphite from the hardware store and a Sketch & Wash water-soluble graphite pencil, also from the art supply store. The Sketch & Wash gives about a third the resistance of a regular soft graphite pencil.
"

.:james:.

P.S. I never got around to trying it.

edit: formatting.
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cymazic



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wonder if this kind of thing may be of any use? Its rather thin copper tape you can stick around your plant pots as a slug repellant.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Slug-Tape-Copper-Tape-Repel-30mm-X-Longer-4m-Roll-Minimum-Effective-Width/271575977463?epid=1855360248&hash=item3f3b308df7:g:O6AAAOSwGllaYIx6

Just a noob so apologies if Im missing something glaringly obvious.

EDIT: Embarassed think I might have suggested exactly the opposite of what is required. Copper is pretty damn conductive isnt it. I'll get my coat Embarassed
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cymazic wrote:
I'll get my coat Embarassed


It's not /that/ cold in here Cool

welcome

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Grumble



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remember years back, before even the 286 era, that a phd was working on a xy input device made out of black plastic that was (sort of) conducting, it had a pretty high resistance per cm, and he had a more or less square piece, with resistors along each side and some chips (guess like a matrix or some sort) and a pen with a wire attached to the tip.
With this he could make drawings on a screen which was a novelty those days (I’m talking about some 35 years ago!)

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