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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » G2 extended patches
Resonator > feedback (delay) > 16 or 24 bits ??!!
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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 261
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 37

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:22 am    Post subject: Resonator > feedback (delay) > 16 or 24 bits ??!! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi!

I'm experimenting with hidden modules. I ask myself if the feedback loop from the resonator module is going to the external ram memory. I feel that this module has a low pass filter with slow decay. Even if the decay is set to the maximum. But after a few seconds it stabilizes as if a minimum sustain level was set. The sound seems good and I do not hear any noise in the background. Even after adding level amplifier modules atfer the 'delay' / before the output.

I made a video for people who cannot load the patch because you need to use the NMG2 0.26 or G2 editor FMX.

Do you have any suggestions for testing if this module uses the external ram memory or not ?



I made the patch with sysex format (to open without special editor) too but I think I cannot upload it to the forum (sysex format).

For now I just tested the delay on arpeggiator lines with a fast BPM (140 to 160). I like the sound. I also did some tests with the driver module. It seems useful for generating harmonics. But it is true that the incoming signal tends to clip quickly. I will continue to study these 2 modules. Not only for their properties in physical modeling. But for all the additional benefits that these modules offer.


TestResov13.pch2
 Description:
Test feedback - resonator module - !!!Dont open with normal editor!!!

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 Filename:  TestResov13.pch2
 Filesize:  1.68 KB
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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 261
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 37

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

About the RAM I can have a look to the cycle vs memory usage but we do not see that with the NMG2 0.26 editor. The FMX editor show this information but I think this is not accurate as I saw in others topics and from my tests I did in the past. I can create a patch only with this module and have a look to the number of voices available after adding each resonator module. I will start with that.

I think this module can be useful for kb tracking with delay and to replace the comb filter for some DIY patches.

Who know? it could be a reason why Clavia said the delay is 24 bits some years before (when working on the PM beta modules)! This module was already in the hardware OS a long time ago.
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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 261
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 37

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Back!

To check if this module uses the external ram memory or not > I can send control signal in the module then make sure that 1/3 of the information has not disappeared (as discussed in the past).

The fact that this module does not induce background noise in the delay (feedback) is probably due to the DSP code (or bug in the DSP code from the other delay modules) rather than the resolution (16/24 bits).

I believe that the delay in this 'hidden' module can be useful in certain conditions.
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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
Posts: 923
Location: Northeastern shore of Toledo Bend
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 53

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I experimented with the hidden Resonator module briefly. I recall that it seemed to be closely related to the String Oscillator module of the released G2 OS. The String Oscillator can have a much larger signal output level than the other G2 oscillator modules, closer to +/- 256 Clavia units than the other modules +/- 64 units. This leads me to suspect that the String Oscillator module delay line is operating at something greater than 16 bits, maybe closer to the full 24 bit capability of the G2 DSP chips.
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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 261
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 37

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi varice!

Quote:
it seemed to be closely related to the String Oscillator module

Yes ! But as I said in my 1st post I don't hear any noise in the backgroud compared to other delay modules, string osc too!

Quote:
I made a small patch with two KS variations: one with a comb filter, and the other with a string oscillator. I gave them both very long decays. They both sounded pretty similar, and both began buzzing as the decay became very quiet. But they both seem much better than the DelayA module.

source : http://www.electro-music.com/forum/post-39591.html#39591

I will edit the patch posted by Tim few posts before (DelaylineTest TK.pch2) and add the 'hidden' resonator to compare with others.

I will try this too :
Quote:
by attenuating a clock pulse signal so that it´s just barely strong enough to trigger something (ANYTHING above zero equals to condition true on G2 logic operations). Next try putting a delay module in between the attenuated clock signal and the trigger destination. Now, try re-amplifying the clock signal until it becomes visible on the trigger led again. And then count the bits!

source : http://www.electro-music.com/forum/post-29338.html#29338

For now I want to jam and have fun with my G2!! I will sit down with coffee and I will experiment with this soon!


About Clavia unit, I believe it's time to measure the unity gain for each module. I can start this task. What do you think is the best way (building block to test each module)? I recently read that the G2 tends to cut the sound/signal when the limit (Clavia unit) is exceeded unlike the G1.

Edit :
Quote:
the way how clippings are handled in the G2. On a heavy overload you can cause the sound to mute on the G2..This never happens with the G1..

source : http://www.electro-music.com/forum/post-29493.html#29493
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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
Posts: 923
Location: Northeastern shore of Toledo Bend
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 53

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Embarassed

I should have taken the time to test my assumption about the String Oscillator module using greater than 16 bits before I replied. A couple of quick tests using the G2 Demo appears to prove me wrong... Rolling Eyes These tests show that apparently the module uses the external 16 bit RAM instead of the internal DSP 24 bit RAM (assuming the G2 Demo is accurately displaying memory allocation and load\overload).

Tests in the G2 Demo involved maxing out the external 16 bit RAM by adding a DelayA1 module Range set to 2.7 sec., then adding the String Oscillator module, which immediately caused a memory overload error. It would not be expected that an overload would occur if the String Oscillator module did not also use the external 16 bit RAM.

An alternative test was to max out the Zero Page memory by adding many modules with many outputs, and then adding the String Oscillator module. This did not cause a memory overload error.

These test methods should also work with the hidden Resonator module in the G2 hardware to determine if it uses 24 bit DSP internal RAM or the external 16 bit RAM...

Thanks for posting this. Your links to the old topics refreshed my memory about the detailed discussions that went on about the G2 back then... Cool

I look forward to any test result that compares the hidden Resonator module sound versus the released String Oscillator module.

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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok

As I said the CPU/mem is not accurate with the FMX editor. Then I was affraid to make this kind of patch from scratch with the FMX editor because I got my G2 (hardware) freeze with an overload of the memory in the past. But I can have a look to the Voice mode screen on G2. If the memory is overloaded the message 'No Voice' replace the number of voices available. Btw the G2 cannot produce sound anymore in this situation.

Well I made the test!

1st test : G2 (hardware) crash. Be careful when changing the delay time with the FMX editor > If you select 2 times the same value ... the G2 crash !

Second test : 1 delayA1 + 1 'hidden' resonator osc module = No Voice !!!
This delay seem to go to the external RAM memory too..

Test 3 : 3 'hidden' resonator modules >
New Patch = 32 Voices
After I added 1 resonator = 24 voices
After I added 2 resonators = 8 voices
After I added 3 resonators = 8 voices (again ?)
After I added 4 resonators = No Voice !

Quote:
Your links to the old topics refreshed my memory about the detailed discussions that went on about the G2 back then... Cool

Old Is Gold Razz
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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
Posts: 923
Location: Northeastern shore of Toledo Bend
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 53

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
...As I said the CPU/mem is not accurate with the FMX editor...

Yep. It would have been helpful if the G2 Editor also accurately showed the Zero Page memory usage verses external RAM...

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
...Second test : 1 delayA1 + 1 'hidden' resonator osc module = No Voice !!!
This delay seem to go to the external RAM memory too..

So, it appears that the hidden Resonator module also uses the 16 bit RAM... Oh well...

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
...Old Is Gold Razz...

Razz

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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So the hidden Resonator and String Oscillator modules apparently use 16 bit RAM. But do they SOUND differently Question
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Electromagnetic Wave



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The hidden resonator provide different algorithms (strings and tubes) and the Pos parameter. Good for physical modeling as we all know. For my part, I managed to get good screaming/distorted sounds from it. I like the sound. I have to add other modules (EQ, filter, etc) to be close of the result with the string osc.

Then this module is probably made to be combined with the hidden Driver module for optimal results. And probably this module offers better (at least different) results than the String Osc when combined with the hidden Driver module.
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