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Heavy metal with xors
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zipzap



Joined: Nov 22, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Heavy metal with xors Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

just got this from an old book. Looks fun so i want to tell you.
They call it heavy metal machine. It should sound like cymbals or banging against the body of a ship.
Take 4 indepandant square oscillators, send each two into an cmos-exor gate, send the two exors into a third exor. (hope that was clear)
than process with vcf/vca/adsr.
Haven´t tried it yet, my workbench is so full i can´t touch anything.
Should be nice with voltage controll for the square generators. Maybe just for one or two of them.
Maybe at slow speed this can create interresting trigger patterns.
cheers
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes it does make ACE sounds - there's quite a few little variations possible and a few designs around - actually this is kind of the heart of quite a few noise boxes I've made with the addition of body contact points into the osc & ring mod circuits. I've used 40106 to make simple sqr wave oscs (vactrol pitch CV control can be used) feeding into 4070 or 4077 - hey, starving these chips of power (circuit bend low power mod) can be quite damn fine. Mmmm you some really beautiful drone tones from such devices.
Sure there's one somewhere in Cloned Analogue Gear or maybe it was something like the Syn-are or Syn-bal...

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I built one of those. with one vactrol vco. Here´s what it sounds like.
In the meentime i gave it two hand controlled vactrol oscs as well. Huge fun.
Would like to hear them starving a little. How should i do that, when they use the same psu as my other modules? The CMOS chips use +12v and ground, the led driver and the Output opamps get +12, -12 and ground.
So i guess i just put a voltage divider like some 100k pot to the cmos chip supply? Anything to whatch out for?


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piedwagtail



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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice sample Zipzap,enjoyed that.Especially the rhythmic fluctuations.....
Robert
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Pretty cool, indeed!

Cheerios,
Scott
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dnny



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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

great. i have to try this at home - when i have some time
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cool. i love sound samples. they've always been a real pain for me to do, but now i have an easy program [but the shit-of-shit for soundcard] so i look forward to posting some here.
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes Ace Sound Joy!

For low power I just starve the digital chips by placing a 1M lin pot across the power line (but only the power for the digital chips!). At low resistances this works pretty much as a tune control, but things go wierdy at high resistance (where power is really starved) - the only thing I think to watch / be aware of is that 'cos the chips are getting low supply voltage, the output waveforms have a lower amplitude ('cos they swing from gnd to +ve supply voltage) -- so 'volume' (level) goes down when the chips are starved.

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe we could use a dual Pot with some aditional resistors. One half starving the chip, one half controlling volume. I´m gonna try and check this out. I also thought of voltage controlling the starving with an opamp powering the cmos chips. Maybe it´s fun, maybe not really.
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just gave it a try. this is fun!
Slight modulation of the power sounds really great with changing overtones, at very low level i get just clicks, sometimes random, sometimes in a cool pattern. good for clocking, triggering, whatever.
About the volume: Even when starving the chip, we are still dealing with logic square pulses here, right?
So it might work to have some comparator thing to get an even output voltage (should be dividet down of course).
Right now i have a tl084 as an voltage buffer out for osc 1+2, 3+4, 1+2+3+4 and 4 (can make cool stereo sounds that way). All i have to do is disconnect the inv. input from the output and put it to ground instead. Am i right there or do i miss something?
Then next i´ll see if this sounds the same when a opamp is used to power the cmos chips. Power should be no problem, since it´s only two chips, but i guess i have to do something so that the voltage can´t go negativ.
I don´t think the chips would like that.
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piedwagtail



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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zipzap,
Can i be so impolite ,here,as to introduce the LM311 comparator chip?
I do believe it could be an asset to you.
Whilst there are chips with 4 comparator blocks,LM339,what is nice about the LM311,apart from being priced cheaply,is the backend.
As your dilemmas of the current droop from last month are still in my mind,this little chip has a medium power transistor on the output,in fact it is a fireblower,pushing up to 50mA.
It can handle between +/- 17V on 18Vpower rails on the input .And can have the output transistor supplied off a different supply,so it could just fire out 5V if required.
I have enjoyed the pin 1 and pin4 to -15V,pin 3 ref,pin2 input,pin8 +15,pin7 is output and collector and as such is tied up to 15V with 1K.(Take it to 5V for etc.)
I don't imagine you'll need it here,but perhaps those event timers over at Peter Grenders might set you off....

Robert
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Robert. Don´t worry, even if it was inpolite i wouldn´t mind a bit.
The Chip you mention sounds useful. That output transistor must be good for interfacing logic signals. Very good to know about!
In this case i also think it´s not needed because - the tl084 output opamp is already on the board - i don´t want to redesign, just do some nasty-type reconnecting. I´m a lazy person.
Also i once heard that special comperators are only needed if you want very high speed. Since we are no bats i think old 084 will be ok.
But who is Peter Grender?
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piedwagtail



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peter Grenader Rolling Eyes
spelling!
http://www.buzzclick-music.com/

specifically...http://www.buzzclick-music.com/homebrew.html

he's an interesting west coast composer,synth-builder,behind some of the ear group designs,the man of Milton,and currently unpleased about appropriation of his work by Cyn industries.
i've appropriated the joystick,voltage processor,low pass gate,sample and hold which all
work wondrously.He's as important as Thomas Henry to my construction.

second Rolling Eyes
i must have been tired...
the pin 1 of the 311,goes to 0v,7 is pulled up to +15 or +whatever gate you want.that sets the output range,pin 4 can go to 0v if you are comparing above ground or to -15V etc for zero detection etc.
er...that needs a photo now...
(my digcamera is excelling itself for some reason)
Robert


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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Robert - mighty thanks for pointing towards Peter Grenader's site - I'd heard of him many times but never actually seen the site and there's really great circuits there. ACE IN EXTREMIS.


...hmmm, I've always just had the logic chips pretty much unbuffered (though may be good at the output) -- and just thought that a simple way to get around the amplitude drop problem would be to put the signal through another invert buffer like you're using for the original squarewave oscs..?.. (..I'm often only using a couple of the hex-inverter gates, so using up an extra one would be easy..)

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This site is great! I´ve been there once, but hadn´t noticed how cool those circuits are! That delay seems great. i have to go for it!
Useing another inverter might not work when you drop the voltage below half the supply voltage, which as far as i know is the minimum level for a high signal. So a comperator is propably the right way.
I just added the buffer because i always do that. As long as you just drive some high impedance (buffered) input it´s not really needed. 1k at the output of the cmos chip is propably enough to protect it against overload anyway.
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

made two little examples of how starving those chips sounds. The first is starting with a littel sequence, than i turn on the light and mod two of the oscs with my hands (they got panal mounted ldrs). Next thing is a sweep from 1Meg to 0 ohm in the power connection.
The second sample chooses some nice position of that power-pot and shows what tuning the xor-oscs sounds like.


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fldrvr



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is this a stand-alone device or part of a module?

Can you post a schematic or a link- I'm not seeing it. Sounds great.
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Mikmo



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ahh i finally breadboarded one of these.

I build it with 2 joysticks controlling the pitch of the 4 squarewaves.

My joysticks have only 10K pots, i would have liked 100 or 150, but the sounds are cool. When i build the final version i think i will put slideswitches with little banks of different capacitors for each oscillator.

those of you who have build one should try to put a solar cell (NOT a photoresistor) in series with the supply voltage. The frequency of the oscillators are depending on the supplyvoltage, so you can "modulate" all 4 oscillators by moving your hand in front of the solar cell. The credit for the solar cell trick goes to the guts from Chromatic Field and their solar modules check it here: http://www.sciss.de/chromaticfield/texts/modules.html

What value potentiometers and caps are you all using ?

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Is this a stand-alone device or part of a module?

fldrvr, hard to tell... It´s a module, part of a synth, by itself not that useful.
If you read the first post you´ll find the description how the sound is generated. If you can´t follow tell me, i´ll paint a napkin.
But anyway that´s only what makes the noisy sounds (all the time). So as a standalone unit you want at least a simple vca, (hand-)trigger and decay envelope.
The sound examples were made with a sequencer controlling pitch and gate.

Hey mikmo, hope you´re having fun with this. Joystick sound´s perfect. If you still got it on breadboard try controlling two of the oscs with indeoendand ldrs. i loved that. Have to check that solar cell stuff. I´ll read the link you posted.
Although i´m not sure, i belive the supply voltage doesn´t affect the speed that much if you use cmos-gate oscillators. It´s something different happening, makeing them just go weird. Anyway that doesn´t matter, if it sounds right...
I´m using 500k and 1meg pots. i put the ldr in series to the pots, in other words: it doesn´t matter what you do. Cabs are around 10-100n i think. Those 10k pots are a bit low, if you don´t mind the extra work you could use the joysticks to controll 4 vactrols with high resistance range.
Or maybe just a larger cab will give you god range.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, just up the caps. I'm not sure about God range, but it should help alot! Very Happy
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fldrvr



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well.. honestly it is a bit above my head and the project sounds advanced for my currently meager abilities. I'm sure that any explanation you offer would help out everyone, though.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Oscillators could be any square wave source, e.g. 555 or schmitt trig astables.


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zipzap



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

exactly. so any of the oscs from your other post will work. It´s also possible to use the outputs of the first exor gates. They sound different, less complex.
Don´t worry, this is not as advanced as the sound it produces, so you´ll manage.
An exor is a special type of logic gate. Like the and gate and all the others. Check your library for the cmos cookbook by don lancaster. This was all above my head till i read that book (3 times).
So you have two square oscs. What do they do? Turn on and off. Thats high or low - 1 or 0. Thats digital logic signal. So it can be prozessed with logic gates. xor means exclusive-or. The 4030 is one of those. That means the gate compares it´s two inputs. If they are different it´s output goes high. In all other cases the output stays low. So you get a complex(sounding) pattern out of the even on/off of the square oscs.
In this case you do the whole thing twice and send the outs to a third exor. Makes it even more complex. To start with you can try the whole thing with 2 square oscs and 1/4 of the 4030. Then build up the rest. Can you follow?

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I'm not sure about God range, but it should help alot!

the spellcheck didn´t mind... is that good?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think i will first try to experiment with larger ordinary pots and LDR's, and then try to find joysticks with larger resistance.

I tried running the circuit with supply voltages ranging from 3V to 9VA (+ the solar cells ca. 2VA). At lower voltages the pitch seems to be lower. At least the sound is very different. So an adjustable suplyvoltage might prove interesting.

One other thing i thought of, is to send the signal (either before or after the XOR's) to a 4040 octave divider IC. The 4040 has in input and i think 12 outputs that will be the input freq. divided by 2 / 4 / 8 /... /4096. So if you make the Oscillators run at a relatively high freq. you can get a whole series of of "Sub octaves".

Since a squarewave is basically "logic fluctuations" ( or 0's and 1's) it ought to be possible to send it through many of the logic IC's. Some of them might produce interesting results. And most of these IC's costs very little.

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