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bachus



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:

I created a little 'chronology' on my web site that will introduce you to my musical background. You might enjoy taking a look at it. You will find some contrapuntal work posted on both the "Synthesizer" and "Theremin" pages that you might enjoy, too. Wink

http://kevinkissinger.com


Wow! I've just listened to a few pieces and already I feel soooooo inadequate! Shocked

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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I feel soooooo inadequate! Shocked

Kevin
tell bachus to give us a break Exclamation Very Happy please Wink

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bachus



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:

Kevin
tell bachus to give us a break Exclamation Very Happy please Wink


Hey! Have some pity. I feel its a real-time accomplishment if I can tie my shoe laces.

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kkissinger



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
bachus wrote:
I feel soooooo inadequate! Shocked

Kevin
tell bachus to give us a break Exclamation Very Happy please Wink


Let me get this straight... Bachus is working on a "fugey thingy" that rivals some of the most intricate Mahler counterpoint and HE feels inadequate? Honestly, my jaw about hit the floor when I first listened to Bachus' project! (and I have listened to it quite a few times since then)

Talented people tend to underestimate their gifts.

I very much appreciate this site because I can interact with very talented, intelligent, and accomplished folks without fear of being put down with a "rtfm" or similar comment.

Thank you for visiting my web site -- glad you like it. Smile
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bachus



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:

Thank you for visiting my web site -- glad you like it. Smile


Your site is very good but I was disappointed that I couldn't find any mp3's of of your organ performances. Did I miss something? Got any CDs?


I am in shock at these appraisals. I gota go think awhile.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:

Talented people tend to underestimate their gifts.

I know exactly what you are talking about Twisted Evil Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
without fear of being put down with a "rtfm" or similar comment.

once I made the mistake of replying to a post using the "rtfm" emoticon. I was almost lynched Surprised

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brams



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I always improvise real-time, so it takes as long as the music piece lasts. + the editing/mixing of course.
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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

brams wrote:
I always improvise real-time, so it takes as long as the music piece lasts. + the editing/mixing of course.


Oh naughty, naughty! That's simply not the way to do it. Shocked
Really, I envy you, though probaly not as much as I envy Marcel Dupré Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Marcel Dupré Wink


arrow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Dupr%C3%A9

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
bachus wrote:
Marcel Dupré Wink


arrow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Dupr%C3%A9


Thanks, but that link doesn't mention his astounding ability as an improvisor. Given a subject and a few minutes to investigate it he could improvise a 4 voice fugue of astounding quality the likes of which I would be proud no matter how long I worked at it. Ooooo now I'm feeling reeeeeeeeealy inadequate. Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
... Ooooo now I'm feeling reeeeeeeeealy inadequate. Laughing


This feeling of being inadequate is facinating to me. Most of us feel this, I'm sure. There are exceptions. Mozart was told, and he believed, that a talent like his came along only once in 100 years. I don't know if he ever felt inadequate musically. But, for the vast majority of us, no matter how good we seem to ourselves to be, there are always people out there that we perceive to be better.

To me it is glorious that many of us keep going anyway.

I've found that the most effective way to deal with the feelings of inadequacy is to develop and exprees my appreciation for other peoples' music. I try my best to hear their stuff with as open as and as accepting an attitude as possible. I also try to express my appreciation to them. Consiously doing this has enabled me to appreciate music that I would otherwise have disliked, it makes other musicians feel better and more incouraged, and, after a while, it makes me more accepting and appreciative of my own music. Not only that, I have come to appreciate Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and the rest even more.

They say "you can't love others unless you love yourself." Maybe that is true, but the converse seems true too, "You can't love yourself unless you love others." More than that, we are all one in the same.

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kkissinger



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I couldn't find any mp3's of of your organ performances. Did I miss something? Got any CDs?


You didn't miss anything. I plan to add additional organ info and mp3s after the first of the year.

In the meantime, here is a live recording of me on a 1907 Hook and Hastings Organ. I'm performing my own composition: "Celeste". To compose the work, I used Cubase software and equipment in my studio -- printed out the score then learned to play it.

I recorded it specifically to showcase romantic organ sounds, only to discover that this organ doesn't have a Celeste stop! Undaunted, I played it anyway -- the string stops are pretty nice on this organ as well as the solo flute.

(well, ok... not exactly electro-music however the organ has an electric action Wink )
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
This feeling of being inadequate is facinating to me. Most of us feel this, I'm sure...

To me it is glorious that many of us keep going anyway...

I've found that the most effective way to deal with the feelings of inadequacy is to develop and exprees my appreciation for other peoples' music. I try my best to hear their stuff with as open as and as accepting an attitude as possible. I also try to express my appreciation to them...

They say "you can't love others unless you love yourself." Maybe that is true, but the converse seems true too, "You can't love yourself unless you love others." More than that, we are all one in the same.


Howard,

Profound comments. We are all human and all subject to feelings of inadequacy. To acknowledge others is the best antidote to such feelings.

Thank you.
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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very nice Kevin. A little too light for my angst ridden soul I confess, but I appreciate the technique and the performance. Thanks for posting it.

And I bet it uses an electric blower too -- how electro can you get!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
We are all human

I remember being at the Musée d'Orsay in Paris in front of a huge amount of masterpieces and thinking to be proud to be "in the same league" of these wonderful artists. Right, we are all human Exclamation

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There has been a confluence of related issues on this board and posts related to it that I need to tie together.

From Stein:
Raymond Tallis in Art (and Philosophy) and the Ultimate Aims of Human Life wrote:
The luminous intelligence, the miraculous imagery, the ravishing music of Shakespeare’s plays is astonishing when one considers the inattentive, malodorous, noisy philistines who placed their bums on the seats. This tells us something about artists – and about humanity.

and
kkissinger wrote:
We are all human


The Tallis article is excellent and it’s not at all clear that his intent in that quote was to suggest that some humans are more human than others. But I want to address this because is connected to some issues related to the “metaphysics’ of composition. Pardon me if this is lengthy and I assume you can just page past it.

There was a time when I assumed a cloak of intellectual snobbism to compensate for my lower-middle class roots. I looked down on and was aloof to people who aspired to middleclass ideals, and this included my mother, who was a very decent caring person but shallow and never quite got the hang of cause and effect in the real world.

One evening, many years ago my 80-year-old grandmother who lived with her more elderly brother set herself alight while warming herself at the fireplace her father had built when she was a child. Uncle was unable to put out the flames before she was severely burned. The next day I watched my mother watch here mother die. In my studies of the arts I had been very moved by (reproductions) of Giotto’s Lamentation and found it a great and powerful work of art. But there in the hospital I saw in that simple woman’s face that “idea” expressed with a depth more profound than in any art I had experienced. That changed my attitude and feelings toward humanity in such that when Kevin says we are all human in can understand him in a way that my self-absorption would not have allowed before that event.

That event also led me to conclude that at its heart life is a tragedy and that the most we can do in the face of that is try to make it a meaningful tragedy.

Raymond Tallis in Art (and Philosophy) and the Ultimate Aims of Human Life wrote:
… That is why we have to agree with Nietzsche that “the creation of art is the only metaphysical activity to which life still obliges us.” Such metaphysical activity is one in which we shall truly experience our experience.



And sharing the experience of the profound is one of the ways to make the tragedy of life meaningful.

Howard wrote:
This feeling of being inadequate is facinating to me.


I have some petty self-absorbed reasons for feeling inadequate but there is one, more universally existential, that plays an important motivating role in my art. The loss of loved ones. The sense of utter and complete helplessness in the face of death, To be powerless to protect or save that which one loves and values more than anything else in life. Music allows me to experience that experience in a way that makes the tragedy of life meaningful and the sense of existential inadequacy bearable.

Again, the world needs help and I wish more musicians would turn more often to the profound issues of life. And it is meant just as wish, not a moral injunction.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Giotto’s Lamentation

see:
Giotto, Lamentation over Jesus (1305-06) - Scrovegni Chapel, Padua, Italy

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Stanley Pain



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it seems strange to be called talented... i spent so much of my youth practising... hours each day. i guess that if putting hours makes you talented, i'm talented. but then this is a beautiful fragment of fugue you've posted and you say you've put a lot of time into it. so you must be talented too bachus.

i do my fair share of electro gigs and the people i most aspire to be like, in the artistic process, are invariably the ones who say they envy my "talents". invariably, i envy the talents of people like autechre, cylob etc who are self professed novices when it comes to the conventional notions of harmony/pitch relationships and durations.

although, i think it's to autechre's credit that i haven't read any interview or article about them that expresses any regret about this, and that's an attitude we should all aspire to, to a certain extent.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Stanley Pain wrote:
it seems strange to be called talented... i spent so much of my youth practising...


For sure I did not mean to suggest that talented people don’t have to work their buns off to put their talents to good use. (Actually it’s seems to me that accomplishing anything worthwhile requires that.) To my mind talent is a ratio between effort expended and results. There was a time when I could play a couple of the preludes from the “Well Tempered Clavier with some musicality. But it literally took years of practice for me to do that. When the Mrs. and I were first married she insisted that a person as “musical” as I could be a competent performer if I would just put in the time. I would not accept that based on past experiences but suggested that we both spend and hour and half each day practicing the same piece and compare our progress. She had taken piano lessons for a brief while when young but had not played in some years though she was quite good at singing a capella Early Music. After two weeks she conceded that there was not much hope for me as a performer of any kind. Another observation. After I gave up composition in my mid twenties because it had become obvious that my rate of production would never improve beyond the impossibly slow I went to college to study physics. There was a dude in one of my calculus classes who would sit at a table in the cafeteria after lunch, do the two hardest homework problems before you could spit and say damn and that was all he had to do to get ‘A’s. Let me tell ya, it’s not that way for everybody. There is such a thing as talent.

Stanley Pain wrote:
, i think it's to autechre's credit that i haven't read any interview or article about them that expresses any regret about this, and that's an attitude we should all aspire to, to a certain extent.


I agree. I mean I do wish I had more talent but the lack of it is not something that has bothered me in many years. Yet it remains true that my inability to play leaves me unable to feel like a “real” musician and embarrassed and confused when “real” musicians give my music high praise. Probably just another petty self-absorbed neuroses, but there you have it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
To my mind talent is a ratio between effort expended and results.


Yes, however one's "progress curve" doesn't always track with one's "effort curve". One can make consistent effort while experiencing jumps and plateaus in one's progress.

I spend 99 percent of my time on plateaus. The jumps occur one-percent of the time. This means that 99 percent of the time I am expending effort with little visible progress. Only as I look back to where I used to be do I see the growth.

bachus wrote:
When the Mrs. and I were first married she insisted that a person as “musical” as I could be a competent performer if I would just put in the time.


Glenn Gould reportedly said that he could teach ANY adult to play the piano. I always found the comment to be enigmatic.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
... Only as I look back to where I used to be do I see the growth..



I think that's called life Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

The Tallis article is excellent and it’s not at all clear that his intent in that quote was to suggest that some humans are more human than others.


Didn't Rob Zombie have something to say about that? Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: How long my last composition took Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just completed a new musical work...

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-14179.html

...that contains a fugal section that was inspired by hearing Bachus' work-in-progress.

How long it took and where the time went

I kept track of how long it took and here are a few observations:

This project took around 60 hours -- yielding a ten-hour-per minute average. This includes time to learn and record the Theremin track. However, I don't work at a steady ten-hours-per-minute rate. The rate varies from two-hours per minute to one-hour-per-second.

The major sections of the work flew together in just four evenings (20 hours)

a) opening section
b) "moaning" section
c) fugal section

The transition from the "a" to "b" section was pretty easy because the tempo didn't change between the sections. Note that the "moaning" theme is the same as the opening theme.

However, the big problem was getting from the "moaning" section (at a moderate tempo) to the fugue (fast tempo). The moaning section originally ended with a drum hit two beats after the current ending of the section. The solution was a short, rubato Theremin solo that served as a lead-in to the new tempo. The rubato section so thoroughly obliterates the opening tempo that you may not notice that it changed! Thus, the result of fifteen hours of work was a twenty-second rubato passage.

The next problem was the fugue itself. While the fugue subject opens with the same four-note theme as the opening, it sounded like a section of some other work. Fortunately, Beethoven provided a solution in his "Eroica" symphony -- that is, to sandwich the fugal section between dancelike music. I've always wanted to do this -- to have a fugal section within an otherwise non-fugal work, and this was a chance!

Thus, the fugue subject (minus the pick-up notes) introduces the dance section. A little theme is tossed around between the Theremin, flutes, glockenspiel, etc along with pizzicato strings. After a few bars of this, the subject is followed by a fugal answer, and we're off to the races!

The fugue cadences-out and returns to the dance theme though the accompaniment retains the contrapuntal "flavor" of the fugue.

The ending took me nearly three evenings to compose. Endings are always tough for me because I just like to keep on going and going. I prefer my endings to use material from the work (rather than just a "ta da" type ending). The Theremin restates the opening theme with repeating sequences and is answered by the accompaniment. A scale flourish and cadence ends it up.

The point of this is that the major content of the music tends to fly together pretty quickly for me -- most of the work in the first 20 hours. The rest of the time is spent "agonizing" over transitions between sections and just listening to assure that the proportions are ok (i.e. -- not overly repetitive, etc).

The part that took the longest was figuring out how to make the transition from the opening tempo to the fugue tempo. At times I was ready to give up on the idea. Nearly twenty hours -- and the solution was to REMOVE a single drum hit!

You may also be interested to know that I composed this entirely with Cubase SX3 on the piano roll editor -- even for the fugal section. The only use of standard notation was to display the Theremin part so that I could play it from a score.

When I recorded the Theremin track, I placed the laptop in front of the Theremin so that I could see the theremin notes on the monitor and actually played from that! It was great -- the computer did all the page turns for me. And.. on the rubato section -- I just followed the cursor. No syncing issues to worry about. Life is good.

To answer Bachus' question has been valuable

To keep track of the time has been very valuable to me. I discovered that I am spending too much time on transitional passages -- that if I consider transitions initially that I should make much better progress in the future.

I also learned that an easy way to get from one tempo to a faster one is to go to a slower one first.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: How long my last composition took Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
....I discovered that I am spending too much time on transitional passages -- that if I consider transitions initially that I should make much better progress in the future.


I find that intriguing but unclear. Could you expand on what you meant by "...that if I consider transitions initially..."

Again, congrats on the work!

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