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How long does it take you.
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bachus



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: How long my last composition took Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:

This project took around 60 hours -- yielding a ten-hour-per minute average. This includes time to learn and record the Theremin track.


Dang! I gotta find something better than these teaspoons to cut granite with Shocked

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: How long my last composition took Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

Dang! I gotta find something better than these teaspoons to cut granite with Shocked

dynamite Question Cool

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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe I can put this more clearly:

kkissinger wrote:
... -- that if I consider transitions initially that I should make much better progress in the future.


By this do you mean that you would spend more time initially, creating partial or complete definition of transition passages?

That would, of course reflect back into the passage(s) that precede the transition. And in the extreme, when one writes out the completed transition(s) first, one is left with the task of discovering what came before as opposed to what comes next.

In my writing transitions often occur at points of high key/mode center significance. I think when the two occur together they are, as a gestalt, a more concrete reflection of a single deeper abstraction. Often I will begin creating score when all I know of a looming transition is its key/mode center and possibly the thematic materials intended for it. Anyway, my point here is, to some extent I am almost always writing to suit what is going to happen.

I would be very interested to know how you and others approach and conceptualize these kinds of issues.

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kkissinger



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wrote:
... -- that if I consider transitions initially that I should make much better progress in the future.


bachus wrote:
Maybe I can put this more clearly: By this do you mean that you would spend more time initially, creating partial or complete definition of transition passages?

That would, of course reflect back into the passage(s) that precede the transition. And in the extreme, when one writes out the completed transition(s) first, one is left with the task of discovering what came before as opposed to what comes next.


Well, to answer your question -- at this point I have noted that working out transitions has consumed a lot of my time. What I will do is listen to other composers noting the methods they use to create transitions. Thus, to deal with transitions is more a matter of expanding my "toolbox". By way of example, when I encounter unwanted parallel motion (say a rogue parallel octave) I already know quite a few ways to deal with the situation.

As far as working in advance, I can make some initial decisions about tempi -- for example if my tempi will change I can choose for them to be mathematically related which opens up possibilities for cross-rhythms, etc.

When the tempi are not related, then it calls for either a gradual speed change or more "drastic" action -- such as my rubato passage or a cadence-like "hit" ala Steve Reich (check out his transitions in "Sextet").

As far as key, I usually don't have trouble getting from one to another. I favor rich harmonies anyway -- after all, with a 13th chord, you can get just about anywhere with a simple common-tone modulation. Smile Whole tones are even easier -- after all, there are only two keys! And even if you can't get directly to the next key, you can usually get there via its dominant, sub-dominant, or relative key.

bachus wrote:
In my writing transitions often occur at points of high key/mode center significance. I think when the two occur together they are, as a gestalt, a more concrete reflection of a single deeper abstraction. Often I will begin creating score when all I know of a looming transition is its key/mode center and possibly the thematic materials intended for it. Anyway, my point here is, to some extent I am almost always writing to suit what is going to happen.


Often times, I come up with a motif or a theme and develop it with a general destination however in the process of composing, I'll let it take unexpected turns -- many of which don't survive editing. However, sometimes I come up with a cool idea to seed another composition even if it proves unusable for the current one.

As you suggest, a decrease in the harmonic motion and weight on a tonal center suggests something significant to come -- a cadence, modulation, a new section, or an ending. A fine example is in Beethoven's 5th -- the restatement of the opening theme is preceded with the strings' relentless repetition of G -- the dominate key of the piece. That Beethoven got such intensity out of a single repeated note underscores his brilliance.

as on off-topic side note, Peter Schickele has recorded the first movement of Beethoven's 5th along with play-by-play announcers. As hilarious as it is ... it is one of the best analysis of the work. Highly recommended!

bachus wrote:
I would be very interested to know how you and others approach and conceptualize these kinds of issues.


My organ prof used to tell me, "Don't worry about 'being musical'. Just do your job. The music is there and you can't hide it!" My organ prof had great belief in me, for sure. He was trying to tell me that if someone has musical talent/passion that it WILL come out.

Aesthetics is one of my favorite topics, and I enjoy philosophical discussions. When I compose, though, I just compose and have faith that the collective experiences (life, listening, reading, meditating, etc) will contribute to the result.

For me, if I set out to write something IMPORTANT or PROFOUND -- I shut down. So, I just compose and try to keep my mind clear.
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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:

For me, if I set out to write something IMPORTANT or PROFOUND -- I shut down. So, I just compose and try to keep my mind clear.


When I set about to write I always have in mind the kinds of places I will be exploring. I don't set out to write profound music. I do set out to explore profound places. Or at least places profoundly important to me. This is partly due to how difficult composition is for me. I want at least the hope that the sweat of my labor will take me closer to an understanding/reconciliation-with existence.

BTW Thanks for an interesting post -- more responses to follow.

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Last edited by bachus on Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
Often times, I come up with a motif or a theme and develop it with a general destination however in the process of composing, I'll let it take unexpected turns -- many of which don't survive editing. However, sometimes I come up with a cool idea to seed another composition even if it proves unusable for the current one.


For sure plans are carefully and lovingly crafted, yet violated/reworked without compunction when the music directs it to be so.

kkissinger wrote:
as on off-topic side note, Peter Schickele has recorded the first movement of Beethoven's 5th along with play-by-play announcers. As hilarious as it is ... it is one of the best analysis of the work. Highly recommended!


Thanks for the heads up. I love Schickele. Oedipus Tex is one of my favorite oratorios.

kkissinger wrote:
bachus wrote:
I would be very interested to know how you and others approach and conceptualize these kinds of issues.


My organ prof used to tell me, "Don't worry about 'being musical'. Just do your job. The music is there and you can't hide it!" My organ prof had great belief in me, for sure. He was trying to tell me that if someone has musical talent/passion that it WILL come out.

Aesthetics is one of my favorite topics, and I enjoy philosophical discussions. When I compose, though, I just compose and have faith that the collective experiences (life, listening, reading, meditating, etc) will contribute to the result.


I was refereing to the technical issues of working from design to score which I really consider issues of craft not musicality. I guess I was not particularly clear. It may be that we are speaking past each other due to missunderstandings caused by my conceptual slippiness.

I compose by listening inside my head and I always "know" when I'm hearing something good. So I know without thought or hesitation the notes I write are the right ones for me to write. But I have no way of knowing if they are the right notes for someone else to listen to. Still that never enters my mind while I'm listening/creating. I certainly known to fret about it after the fact. (A stupid wasteful habit, I know.)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I hear lots of music in my head. Usually though, it is interrupted by my commenting on it - mostly about how to realize the composition or the sounds. When I'm actually working with patches and equipment/software I go off and come up with something discovered along the way that can be very different. Thus, the music in my head is mostly inspirational - rarely coming out.

The same process seems to work when I'm writing a program too.

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bachus



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I hear lots of music in my head. Usually though, it is interrupted by my commenting on it - mostly about how to realize the composition or the sounds. When I'm actually working with patches and equipment/software I go off and come up with something discovered along the way that can be very different. Thus, the music in my head is mostly inspirational - rarely coming out.:


I often hear less-than-good music in my head. If its' the best I can come up with that way I'll use it as a fixer-upper or a starting place. If I recall correctly Beethoven sometimes spent years tweaking a theme or other musical idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
... Beethoven sometimes spent years tweaking a theme or other musical idea.

Yes, but Mozart heard entire compositions in his head and just wrote out the only and final draft with hardly a single correction. --sigh--

I was once in the JP Morgan library on music manuscripts in NYC with a group of school teachers. They pulled out several hand written manuscripts from the great masters. Works by Bach, Mozart, Stravinski, Beethoven, Satie, and others were on the table in this conference room. The curator lead the group out of the room to go see something else. Genevieve - then about 11 - and I were left alone in the room. On the center of the table was Mozart's 40 Symphony - in a beautiful custom made silver jeweled case made for its one-time owner - Leopold.

I took Genevieve's hand and went up to the box and opened it. The pages of the score rose up like magic on a springed platform. I turned the pages. I could feel electricity in my body. I was touching the same pages as Mozart himself! I urged Genevieve to touch the pages too - she was scared - too many years of puritanical American education. I know, if everyone on Earth that wanted to touched this manuscript it would distroy it, but this was me and my daughter and, hell, if Mozart wouldn't have wanted us to touch it he wouldn't have arranged it to be there in an empty room, would he. Reluctantly she touched the pages too. She felt the electricity too.

After a couple of minutes of orgasmic contact with the spirit of Mozart, we closed the case and rejoined the tour group.

Ever since then both of us have been able to hear every note of any Mozart composition we want, simply by playing a CD. Amazing... Shocked

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Amazing... Shocked

indeed Cool

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flowersniffer7



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My recent recording are the fruit of about 2 years worth of programming sampling and such... Usually once I have that in place it takes only about a month to tweak everything exactly the way I want it and have everything prepared to record... It can be pretty tedious, but since I have adopted a "method." The songs have been coming increasingly more quickly... The creative part is never so much the struggle... it is always learning the technical ability that allows you to output your creativity that takes time and patience I think... Whether it is learning a new instrument or programming... or whatever you choose to do.
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svivens



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I saw here no topic for "improvisation", certainly because it is an instinctive instant composition...so i post it there, please redirect if non contextual. Crying or Very sad
this tune proposes a maximum exchange between Lembe Lokk (estonian singer)
and i (french Usine/piano player)
everything is played,recorded,looped exept Stravinsky Samples (pitched real time,no headphones) Cool rythm boxes,drm/perc loops.
it took me 3months to prepare the sample collection for this project
(three hours a day average) and build my patches and Usine workspace
(with 80% of self made patches )challenge! lot of work but highly impelling. Very Happy )
part1and2:
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=6215031&q=hi
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=6214999&q=hi&newref=1
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Stanley Pain wrote:
it seems strange to be called talented... i spent so much of my youth practising...


For sure I did not mean to suggest that talented people don’t have to work their buns off to put their talents to good use. (Actually it’s seems to me that accomplishing anything worthwhile requires that.) To my mind talent is a ratio between effort expended and results. There was a time when I could play a couple of the preludes from the “Well Tempered Clavier with some musicality. But it literally took years of practice for me to do that. When the Mrs. and I were first married she insisted that a person as “musical” as I could be a competent performer if I would just put in the time. I would not accept that based on past experiences but suggested that we both spend and hour and half each day practicing the same piece and compare our progress. She had taken piano lessons for a brief while when young but had not played in some years though she was quite good at singing a capella Early Music. After two weeks she conceded that there was not much hope for me as a performer of any kind. Another observation. After I gave up composition in my mid twenties because it had become obvious that my rate of production would never improve beyond the impossibly slow I went to college to study physics. There was a dude in one of my calculus classes who would sit at a table in the cafeteria after lunch, do the two hardest homework problems before you could spit and say damn and that was all he had to do to get ‘A’s. Let me tell ya, it’s not that way for everybody. There is such a thing as talent.

Stanley Pain wrote:
, i think it's to autechre's credit that i haven't read any interview or article about them that expresses any regret about this, and that's an attitude we should all aspire to, to a certain extent.


I agree. I mean I do wish I had more talent but the lack of it is not something that has bothered me in many years. Yet it remains true that my inability to play leaves me unable to feel like a “real” musician and embarrassed and confused when “real” musicians give my music high praise. Probably just another petty self-absorbed neuroses, but there you have it.


I think we should all just allow ourselves to be happy doing what we can and not worry about all those things we can't do

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bachus



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

modulator_esp wrote:

I think we should all just allow ourselves to be happy doing what we can and not worry about all those things we can't do


Thank you,

That is surely the road of wisdom, noting that the problem of finding the on ramp remains. I am still looking for it however Smile

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
modulator_esp wrote:

I think we should all just allow ourselves to be happy doing what we can and not worry about all those things we can't do


Thank you,

That is surely the road of wisdom, noting that the problem of finding the on ramp remains. I am still looking for it however Smile


My on ramp is marked with a sign saying "Arrogance / Ignorance". Twisted Evil I simply take few moments where I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks, because I am right and everyone else is wrong. When my intellect recovers from the shock and points out the flaws in this reasoning, I have hopefully gotten some music underway and I'm too preoccupied with that to bother listening to the annoying brain.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been working on a new composition on and off for nearly a year. I am about eight minutes in to it however I've found myself kind of "stuck". It is a very strong composition -- I am pleased with what I have so far.

However my attempts to continue it have fallen short -- I suspect because I've already introduced enough ideas that to introduce more makes the whole thing sound aimless.

My plan is to return to this work and reintroduce elements from the beginning -- maybe that will get me back on track with this work.

Composing is hard for me... I struggle with it. However, I think the struggle to compose -- borne of self-doubt, fear, etc... -- translates into something musically in the sense that a completed work, for me, is a triumph over negative feelings.

I really don't know how long it takes me to compose most things -- I don't have consistently productive composition sessions.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:29 am    Post subject: How Long Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some folks run faster than others. Some cars go faster than others but if you're on the right road you'll get there. If you want something bad enough obstacles don't count. Just keep going.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to see you back, Jack.
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Electroma Boy



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:48 am    Post subject: My compisition time Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Setting the song structure and mood of the song in about 15 minutes.
Realization with synths,guitars,drums,vocals and some electronic stuff on the computer about 4 weeks (4 to 5 hours of work/one day)

Depends on how complicated i make it for my self

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electroma Boy, welcome to electro-music.com
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Electroma Boy, welcome to electro-music.com


Thanks, nice to be here:)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Depends on the composition.

I'm writing a piece for violin solo right now (aprox. 15 mins) and I think it's gonna be finished around September. But it's in part because I'm coding the software too, and I easily get distracted with all sorts of new ideas not to mention that I'm busy with other stuff (school, social services, blablabla etc)

On the other elbow, I do a lot of free improvisation/spontaneous composition gigs, most of the time it's just a drummer and me on electromagnetic bass guitar, computer and a microphone... I just love these type of performances because I say whatever it's in my head and I play the lines as they come to me and it's just beautiful to be able to communicate with other musicians. I remember once, it was just the drummer and me in front of like 1000+ people and I started singing about the time I was cooking some waffles and my mother as she came down the stairs she said "what's that smell? did another rat died?" ... people had a wtf expression in their faces, but I like to believe they liked it.

Anyway, I believe that the duration of the compositional process varies depending on the piece. It took Stockhausen twenty six years to compose Licht whereas spontaneous composers such as Joelle Leandre can create the piece in real-time. It also depends on the composer, of course.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:42 am    Post subject:
Subject description: closed versus open form
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It seems like this discussion about "getting done" is largely about what I think of as "closed form" compositions, where there is actually something to finish.

I find that more and more I am taking "closed" pieces that I "finished" a few years ago and "opening them back up," treating them as partial compositions over which I can improvise.

Is there any codified way to notate this?

I suppose the score of Riley's In C is along these lines. For improvised music, one could rearrange and add/subtract these sorts of motive-building-blocks at play time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject: Weeks Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If I work alone, wich is the usual one, it takes me about a week to make a 3-4 minute track, without vocals, usually electronic music. Sometimes when I have a rush in about 8 hours I complete a song, and sometimes is not just electronic, but a 6 minute movie type song, with a lot of phrases and diferent parts. But I get that rush maybe 3 times a year.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

aldanasjuan welcome to electro-music.com
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