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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Everyone is free to do what they want so I'm not advocating anyone sign or not sign anything.

I'm reluctant to sign a petition because I associate petitions with political causes. I sign a lot of petitions that go to politicians asking them do do something. I do this as a citizen and the politicians have at least some implicit obligation to do the will of the citizens, or at least consider their opinions. However, I might sign a petition to a company if they were violating human rights or destroying the environment somehow. Everyone has an implicit obligation to respect human rights and protect the environment.

Clavia is an individual business. If I were to sign a petition for them, it would just be to say "thanks".

It occurs to me that there are probably some proprietary algorithms in the NM1 code that are used in their other more profitable products - who can tell. Their code is reused throughout their products. Who are we to tell them to release their code? They have been asked to do this many many times before. My guess is they have given it serious thought. If they choose not to, that's OK with me.

Personally, my best interests as a G2 owner are, IMHO, best served by Clavia doing whatever they can to be profitable and secure. I think that would mean the best future for these instruments.

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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
If I were to sign a petition for them, it would just be to say "thanks".

thumb up well done

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think petitioning implies the request is a humble one and inherently asigns status to the receipient. You can debate wether ot not it's healthy or apropriate to deal with elected leaders that way; I'd call it a "sugestion" or a "proposal" in that case. Democratically elected rulers are our paid servants and representatives, not people with a claim to a devine right to rule, at least that's how I feel.

I feel it's wholy inapropriate and a sign of the times that these days people are "petitioning" multinationals.

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chresan



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi sawtooth, before I write anything I want you to know that I still support your idea of a petition and hope it will finally become a success. Currently, it doesn't look like your attempt will be successful, but I think there is no reason to give up. In one of your previous postings you wrote
Quote:
I just want to create a discussion and make Clavia aware of the interest among us users for further development.

In the sense of a discussion, I hope you will reevaluate the petition and consider the criticism.
The main flaw I see in your attempt is that it is not clear to everyone what 'exactly' you want to ask Clavia for. With exactly I understand not only the demands of the petition but also the form of the writing. For transparency it would be good, if you create a letter and post it here as PDF. The wording of the letter could be discussed and revised together with everyone interested. Perhaps this will also bring more attention to the petition. Furthermore the demands you want to include in the text should be more selective. In my opinion it is bad to ask for releasing any source code (I would not sign the petition if it goes that far).

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dasz



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sawtooth,

I agree with mosc, Kassen, and Christian ...

I stress to you -- don't ask for open source, I guarantee that will never happen -- would Waldorf ever release the source code of the microwave 2/xt filters -- not likely). All you can ask for is another release (prioritized by such a discussion and the feedback collected in the bugs subforum) - ... or some statement as a response to the petition ...

Instead of sending a small petition (few signatures) right away, I think it would serve everyone well to create a thread where we can either
a. adjust the polling options and keep running the poll to get a solid list going
b. collecting pm's, existing posts and messages to put together a petition

either option requires someone to take ownership...

please remember that Clavia is a small shop and anything they say or do has a strong effect and repercussions ... this is why they are so silent -- their actions speak louder than their words ever would ...

Just my $.02 CDN
/Dasz

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually, one thing to considder is that if CLavia were to open the source it might be under a lisence that wouldn't allow the sort of derivative some of us might like.

Right now, because it is closed we can prove that Qfinger's code does not borrow from Clavia and just reverse engineers the protocol. If it would be open there might later be cases with Clavia claiming some ownership of the code because of similarities like that whole Linux-Unix messup that was draging on in the past year or so.

Petitioning might not be that usefull since I think it's safe to say Clavia sold the G2's with the implication that there would be more updates and we know from rumours that Clavia themselves *want* to update as soon as time and money is available.

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jonkull



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Democratically elected rulers are our paid servants and representatives, not people with a claim to a devine right to rule, at least that's how I feel.


If only they felt the same...
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, that, I suppose, is the other side of democracy. What does one do when the majority actually wants a leader that's apointed by God, preferably a hereditary one?

In the Netherlands we solved this in typical Dutch fashion, doing both in a halfhearted fashion. We have both a queen and elected leaders. In typical Dutch fashion that creates a situation that nobody realy likes a lot but neither are there too many people that object too strongly.

I'm not sure I would recomend it but it's a example of something that you could try.

I could imagine other systems as well. We could go up one level and elect a God (Vote Odin for president! Join the Shiva 2008 campaign! Read my lips; no more scripture!), then have our elected god apoint a leader. After 4 years we could have new elections. We might need to elect a Pantheon to act as a house of representatives as well, we can't let ominpotence go unchecked in politics, after all.

This'd put a clear end to the seperation of church&state but it might have advantages. Getting your asasinated president resurected would save you all those premature elections, for example.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I could imagine other systems as well. We could go up one level and elect a God...


Brilliant! Hail the Master

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One of the main reasons Clavia wouldn't give away the source code is it could be in the hands of people who don't know exactly how to handle it and Clavia would be besieged by users with complaints caused by the bad work of others... It will give them a bad publicity, not a good one!

Wout
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
One of the main reasons Clavia wouldn't give away the source code is it could be in the hands of people who don't know exactly how to handle it and Clavia would be besieged by users with complaints caused by the bad work of others... It will give them a bad publicity, not a good one!


If that is the reason, then it's a pretty weak one, IMHO. Nobody complained to Bell Labs when Linux or BSD had problems. When you release code, you release it - it has its own life. Besides, Clavia has proven to be very good at not responding when being besieged by users. Twisted Evil

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All true, Mosc, but I'm not sure it works like that in the consumerist music world.

On a Dutch forum I already saw posts about our very own NM => G2 converter. People misunderstood how comandline tools worked and seemed to expect to be given one soon.

"free" as in "my constitional right to beer"... I suppose.

The future will tell. A while ago this guy released a homebrew OS update for the MPC1000. I'd like this sort of thing to become more common, it'd be nice if it could help shift how poeple deal with their instruments but at the same time there seems to be a different movement in the exact oposite direction.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are many possible reasons for not releasing the source.

What if it contained sections copied from some open source project like csound.

Or maybe it is just very untidy and Clavia don't want to be laughed at by other programmers.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
All true, Mosc, but I'm not sure it works like that in the consumerist music world.

On a Dutch forum I already saw posts about our very own NM => G2 converter. People misunderstood how comandline tools worked and seemed to expect to be given one soon.

"free" as in "my constitional right to beer"... I suppose.

If you mean on dutch SF I think you're representing it a bit pessimistically. I posted it there to raise awareness about the converter and just had to do some elaborate explaining to get everyone to understand how it works, and that appeared to work.

From my perspective, it would not be a problem to have the 'official last version' for the regular users, supplied by the manufacturer, and a unofficial unsupported one developed by enthousiast for the savvy users that do not mind a bug or two mixed in with new features.

Anyway, I think there are two parts of the software that can be open sourced, the editor and the internals. The former might have some advantages but most of the work appears to have been done by enthusiasts already. The latter will probably never be released, as it is probably a central asset of the company.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think theese days you just turn your back for a minute and a chinese company might get on the market with a 1:1 clone for 10% of the price.
As long clavia is using the dsp code in actual products they would be stupid to make it open source..

As far as i understood the NM and G2 technology lives in other clavia products aswell... So...
A petition askingg for open sourcing theire very own developments wont change anything...
It would be however cool if clavia would bring the G2 a bit closer to the Nm1 by a few extra modules that allow the converter to reach 100% conversions...
when they have an spare Nm1 flying around it would be good to sponsor qfiner with that because that might bring us the a converter in the other direction aswell... but thta maybe not in clavias interest?

However.. i am happy when there is a bit more G2 development at all...
Still would like to see polyphinc sequencers
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dasz



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and I want patterns in sequencers (with modulation input and current/next pattern displays -- so a "tall" sequencer module)... using a pattern max dropdown or up/down button which allocated more or less max memory locations (8., 16, 32 or maybe all 64) ... and a knob which picks the patterns and and quantize button to ensure you do not need perfect timing (like I have had to learn with my G2) ...

this way the assigned knobs of one sequencer can be used to edit as many patterns as you need, vs using different pages (which quickly get eaten up the more patterns you have scattered across multiple sequencers) as you need to do with the multiplexer solution ...

it would improve performance-ability of this performance synth ... a B-I-G D-E-A-L for me Wink

rock on Chicago - http://www.chicagoblackhawks.com/ !
/Dasz

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fozzie wrote:

If you mean on dutch SF I think you're representing it a bit pessimistically. I posted it there to raise awareness about the converter and just had to do some elaborate explaining to get everyone to understand how it works, and that appeared to work.


You are right. I just looked it up and it turns out I only saw that one in the "this doesn't work" stage and before the later more postive posts.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dasz wrote:
Instead of sending a small petition (few signatures) right away, I think it would serve everyone well to create a thread where we can either
a. adjust the polling options and keep running the poll to get a solid list going
b. collecting pm's, existing posts and messages to put together a petition


sawtooth - you wanted to do this petition to make Clavia aware of users desires for more modular system development, but they are probably already aware of these wishes. I have written to Clavia directly (as have other people) about this. Check this:

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-101683.html&highlight=#101683

Clavia's response was that they were very happy to have EM forum members showing such interest in the modular products. My request would be considered, but no commitment to a future G2 OS update was made.

Maybe other members could post their past requests and responses.

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chresan



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe we should find a common denominator for the petition rather than including particular feature requests.

In my eyes a common denominator would be only to ask for the (missing) specifications and allowing to use the help files and artwork in open source projects. Just the things that will help the development of new applications.

I think it's likely that the G2 editor development will be discontinued at some point in time, like it happened to the previous editor. Although users are currently not affected by an old software, they might be affected in the near future. Both G1 and G2 owners sit in the same boat regarding this issue.

On the other side, I understand the wishes for implementing particular modules, but I wonder if this is what Clavia fears. If we are successful with the request we could set of an avalanche. Perhaps we reduce this part to a general statement that we are interested in further development.

About the low response to the petition - on the nmedit/nomad page we have a download statistic with almost 900 downloads of the nm1 open source editor. I think we have a good chance to get a few hundred people to sign the petition. But we might have to let some of the other communities know about it.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

chresan wrote:
Although users are currently not affected by an old software


there seems to be an issue already with USB drivers and win vista, guess that was to be expected. It might be easier to get the NM Classic to work under vista - probably using a recent midi interface.

Quote:
About the low response to the petition - on the nmedit/nomad page we have a download statistic with almost 900 downloads of the nm1 open source editor. I think we have a good chance to get a few hundred people to sign the petition. But we might have to let some of the other communities know about it.


Wow that's a lot, guess this means the Classic is very much alive still. Maybe someone should just write a proposal or a sketch ... hint hint Very Happy

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chresan



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
chresan wrote:
Although users are currently not affected by an old software


there seems to be an issue already with USB drivers and win vista, guess that was to be expected. It might be easier to get the NM Classic to work under vista - probably using a recent midi interface.


I read somewhere that vista requires 'signed' drivers or similar, is this why the usb drivers make problems ? The Nm1 editor must be started in compatibility mode in Windows 2000 and Windows Xp. I wonder if Vista has this option as well. If not a recent midi interface would not help much.

Quote:
Quote:
About the low response to the petition - on the nmedit/nomad page we have a download statistic with almost 900 downloads of the nm1 open source editor. I think we have a good chance to get a few hundred people to sign the petition. But we might have to let some of the other communities know about it.


Wow that's a lot, guess this means the Classic is very much alive still.


This is what I thought after the first ten downloads Laughing
If you are interested, the project stats are here:
http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/?group_id=69377&ugn=nmedit
You can click on the downloads graph and change its resolution.

Quote:
Maybe someone should just write a proposal or a sketch ... hint hint Very Happy

Are you adressing me ??? Shocked

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

chresan wrote:

Are you adressing me ??? Shocked


Embarassed yes I was, but didn't want to Shocked you, was just thinking you wrote some very sensible stuff in the thread part above, so that such would be a good idea. But maybe it should be done by sawtooth, as the starter of this thread.

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chresan



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry for the late reply, I was on vacation the last two days.

Blue Hell wrote:
Embarassed yes I was, but didn't want to Shocked you, was just thinking you wrote some very sensible stuff in the thread part above, so that such would be a good idea.

In fact the shocked sign was about myself because I was not sure about the intention of your wording due to my limited english. Very Happy

Quote:
But maybe it should be done by sawtooth, as the starter of this thread.

Yes, I hope he or someone else will do it. My involvement in the nmedit project is already very time consuming and I do not want to work on further things because I have not the time to make it right.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

chresan wrote:
I have not the time to make it right.


The perfect alibi Laughing Seriously though, I can very well understand that. Apart from that I think no one needs an excuse to not write a petition for Clavia, it is not an easy task.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can it be that this thread is dead ? I hope not Wink
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