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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Gender equality in electro
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bernat



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:23 pm    Post subject: Gender equality in electro
Subject description: feministing
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This is a major reason for the forum, right?
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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Korrekt. Your 3000-word essay on the subject is due one week from today.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Doesn't sound very "equal" to me, where is the section on "men in electro" then?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Having worked around cows, bulls and steers I've thought a lot about feministing and think it would be very interesting to see what the world would be like if all male hominids were castrated around age 3.

Not that it would prevent some from making dogs spend most of their lives in cages. Hard to say how much of the bad is hominid and how much hormones--but a lot has to be hormones.

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KarmanHardon



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3 is abit early I think.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

KarmanHardon wrote:
3 is abit early I think.

I have to admit that I do not know at what age the testes begin to produce developmentally significant levels of testosterone but better safe than sorry I always say.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

Not that it would prevent some from making dogs spend most of their lives in cages. Hard to say how much of the bad is hominid and how much hormones--but a lot has to be hormones.


...Yes and how much of it is culture?

The son of a friend of mine used to be very facinated with wild animals and because of that he'd love to wear pants with animal prints. The daycare he went to determined that was too feminine and complained about it, they also determined his hair needed to be cut. Fortunately this friend isn't particularly concerned with what's "normal" so he instantly looked for a different day-care but just image how many similar incidents happen on a daily basis.

I've often thought about this same experiment, it mainly started after taking E a few times and noticing in practice how much chemicals can affect how you feel and act. it would even be interesting to remove the testicles/ ovaries, then apply the exact same hormones in the exact same dosage chemically. I imagine this would deeply affect the way people look at their own behaviour but I'm not sure.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
KarmanHardon wrote:
3 is abit early I think.

I have to admit that I do not know at what age the testes begin to produce developmentally significant levels of testosterone but better safe than sorry I always say.


I'd like to motion for removing ovaries as well; stereotypical feminine behaviour is every bit as anoying as stereotypical male behaviour, at least to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I'd like to motion for removing ovaries as well; stereotypical feminine behaviour is every bit as anoying as stereotypical male behaviour, at least to me.


Naaa, I just want to minimize exploitation, violence, and cruelty. At least with females that's only minimally (or is it cyclically) related to the ovaries. Ask anyone who regularly rides mares about the cyclical part.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fair, but I'd counter that you can ask any male who's sexualy atracted to women wether exploitation and cruelty are limited to those having testicles.

Also; according to some sources domestic violence of women towards men is at least as common as the other way around with most statistics getting scewed by men being more embaraced to report it because of gender roles and violent men being more likely to result in a need for medical care.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I may be overestimating the role of hormones. As I mentioned, their link to aggression seems related to degree to which a species is predatory. I'm probably giving humanity too much the benefit of a doubt on that count. Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, I think you are right but I think it's more complicated then just blaming male hormones or a predatorial nature. To me it seems that agression (of any sort, I'm including social agression here) that's at all related to mating and relationships will likely have a hormonal component.

Just this spring I saw a group of (male) ducks rape another (female) duck and ducks don't seem predatorial (in the traditional sense of the word) in the slightest to me. What I didn't see (but what definately happens) was female ducks cheating on their partner; I'd definately call that exploitative.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Doesn't sound very "equal" to me, where is the section on "men in electro" then?


It's here:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/forums.html

James

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1. I over simplify (so ideas will fit in my tiny little brain).

2. I'm speaking of tendencies (so I will have a lot of wiggle room).

3. I really have a hard time believing that men are subject to domestic violence at a level in anyway comparable to women. This seems to me to be one of those situations where extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
3. I really have a hard time believing that men are subject to domestic violence at a level in anyway comparable to women.


Google for "men victim of domestic violence"

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:

It's here:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/forums.html


I'm not so sure that's true but if it is we should wonder how and why that happened because in that case something is seriously wrong. Are you sure EM in general is about "men in electronic music" beyond it being mostly populated by male members? I don't think that's true at all, for one thing I think most regulars are relatively sensitive towards these issues compared to the electronic music world at large.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

Google for "men victim of domestic violence"


Shocked Gees! And I always felt safer, if not much more comfortable, around women. I guess biases formed in childhood are hard to change.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I guess biases formed in childhood are hard to change.


That's what I meant. That topic is one clear example where such biases do a lot of harm. i think a similar bias is keeping many girls and women from even getting started in EM.

I think that if we are after "Gender equality in elektro" (I'm not yet sure what that would even mean) we need to confront those. I also think we need to honestly confront diferences.

You can say "A Virus is as good as a Nord Lead" but that doesn't help us, realy, because much more interesting in practice is knowing what their strong sides that make them shine are.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When the forum for women opened, I started a post just like yours Kas. "Where's the male forum?"...presumably to discuss the difficulties of being a man in electro-music, the lack of happy hours specifically for men, and other reasons why no one opens the door or holds an umbrella for me and other Y-chromosome carriers.

But, as I see more women in more powerful positions, I invariable end up asking myself: is the feminist movement about equal opportunity, equal power, or equal revenge? Power corrupts. Simply because traditional social status has had this power in men, doesn't mean (in my mind) that testosterone is to blame. I think it's got a bit more to do with expectations and responsibility (and their counterparts).

Anyway, I'm also not "offended" that a women's sub-forum exists. Equal opportunity means allowing others to choose things I wouldn't.

Back to the music Smile Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

woah, so many comments! excellent!

my responses, various and sundry:

1. while i desire in no way to minimize the trauma of men who are abused by women, we do live in a society which considers women the property of men and not the other way around. this is not just my opinion; this is legal history in most countries of the world. in many states marital rape still doesn't legally exist, since it's just a man "using" his "property". theoretically this could lead to more rape of men by their wives, but because of a number of factors, both physiological and sociological, this isn't the case.

2. hormones can cause an increase or decrease in aggressive behaviors but i'd like to point out that these are not limited to sex-related hormones, that women also have testosterone albeit in lower levels than men do, and that what is considered "aggressive" is very subjective within societies.

3. the electro-music forums are obviously not designed with the conscious goal of catering to a specifically male audience. however, they have developed to serve a male-centric audience, and it is telling that of the 10 or so women i personally encountered at electro-music 2007, several were there to serve the beer. this forum is very important because not having it would make the statement to women that the electro-music.com community doesn't care one whit whether women actually participate or whether they just serve the beer in this world of ours. not very encouraging to female musicians wanting to be a part of the group.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

Just this spring I saw a group of (male) ducks rape another (female) duck and ducks don't seem predatorial (in the traditional sense of the word) in the slightest to me.


Trust me, that's only because you're not a small fish Wink

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
...we do live in a society which considers women the property of men and not the other way around. this is not just my opinion; this is legal history in most countries of the world. in many states marital rape still doesn't legally exist, since it's just a man "using" his "property".


Really!

And to me it raises the question as to why this is such a common thread in human history. Is it simply that men are generally larger and more powerful or is it deeper than that.

It is unflattering to our egos to accept that biology/chemistry plays an important role in our mental lives and in the determination of many of our actions/decisions and I think people underestimate it for that reason. But I will, of course, defer to science when it has the answers to these questions.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
this forum is very important because not having it would make the statement to women that the electro-music.com community doesn't care one whit whether women actually participate or whether they just serve the beer in this world of ours. not very encouraging to female musicians wanting to be a part of the group.


I personally don't care one whit whether a girl is playing keys or serving beer, nor do I care whether a guy is playing keys or picking up my trash. I will welcome either with the same gratitude they deserve for fulfilling a purpose. I really don't want anyone to take this the wrong way, but some times recognition creates separation. I'm not talking "every kid who plays deserves a trophy" kind of thing. More like, "I" (as in me, myself, and I) have never given thought as to catering to a male or female, nor disqualifying one over the other. So, now I feel like I am "supposed' to be thinking about this. I don't feel like it's a step in the right direction for me, so I don't think I'll spend much time in this end of the forum. I suppose there may be others who aren't in the same place, though. So I'll concede here.
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etherline



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:

...not very encouraging to female musicians wanting to be a part of the group.


Just a personal point of view here; but I find most of the posts in this forum very discouraging. Will it really encourage women to take part in this forum to read academic musings about the role of women in society? May I humbly suggest that perhaps the esteemed moderator and others might like to tell us a bit about their motivations for and experience of being involved in this form of music. Rather than an abstract debate, what could be more inspiring than a few stories from women who are actually involved in electro-music?
I, for one, would really *like* to hear what women think about being involved in this form of music. Maybe some women would as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:

I personally don't care one whit whether a girl is playing keys or serving beer, nor do I care whether a guy is playing keys or picking up my trash. I will welcome either with the same gratitude they deserve for fulfilling a purpose.


My feelings exactly. On the other hand all these things exist in the context of social structures and their history. I'm sure my slave owning ancestors had much the same feelings as expressed in your first sentence quoted above though not likely the second. And that's what's at issue here. Social-historical context--which by its memes is an active participant in the present. I applaud your noble sense of equality but it's all the other drops in the ocean with which some of us are concerned. But you are also correct in that these threads will be of little interest to those unconcerned about which way the currents are running. It's rather different for those who recognize that, to some extent their boats are caught in them.

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