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WASP VCF clone
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: WASP VCF clone
Subject description: my latest project...
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...still on breadboard. VCF core works fine... the other parts will have to be checked next weeks...
http://www.modular.fonik.de/Page38.html

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Funky40



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Foniks Website wrote:
The 2nd CV in (FM) provides an attenuverter (thank you Funky40 for this idea. it's allways good to listen to a hardcore patchers advice)


uhhh, i'm not a Hardcore Patcher, i'm just into groove generating.
and to make good grooves with 8 repeating steps from a Seqeunzer,
one need something to vary and to twiddle Wink
I'm really allways beginner......


btw.@ fonik:
thanks fonik for adding the Inverter.
Please make the Inverter that way available that one can choose how to wire it up.
I prefer for example to wire it to a switch which i then also can use as a mute switch.
serenadi has made his Polivoks Filter like this. ----> just perfect



Mosc mentioned the Idea that i can use a switch for the Inverter also for muting the CV inputs in a thread here at EM many moons ago.
Hey, and i build now all my Filters like this. Very Happy Very Happy
and i won't have any Filters any more without that Feature.
Muting CV Inputs is a veeeeeery useful Feature.
Thanks @ Mosc for that tip ! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've never heard the Wasp filter. Does anyone have a link to audio please?

I really like the added distortion. Everyone is going to throw their individual ideas at you, so pick and choose (and choose the above idea of switching one channel of CV in and out- great idea!). Would it be possible to have another distortion mode, to be able to switch it in prior to the filter, to distort just the input, as well as the given option of distorting the output?

No problem if not, just throwing ideas on the wall to see if any are worthy of sticking. Good work!
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fonik



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

got the proto working - not satisfied by the CV response, though.
below is a simple sound sample. you'll find additional samples especially of the resonance behaviour in the MS20 thread.
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-22235-50.html&sid=313d4fc60fa10de9235f8c62622a732a

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wasp_01.mp3
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a first sound sample, nothing fancy...

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 Filename:  wasp_01.mp3
 Filesize:  1.54 MB
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Etaoin



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fonik, does it work out alright with the 4069? I remember reading somewhere that Seb Francis said that when running in linear mode, you should not use more than three gates from the same chip or they would run too hot. That's the reason he split the two distortions in his Box-O-Trix over two 4069's and left three gates unused in each IC.
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
I've never heard the Wasp filter. Does anyone have a link to audio please?


Try listening to The Stranglers some time. Dave Greenfield had 3 Wasps in his keyboard rig, and the synth parts on the LP "meninblack" was all Wasp Smile

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fonik



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Etaoin wrote:
Fonik, does it work out alright with the 4069? I remember reading somewhere that Seb Francis said that when running in linear mode, you should not use more than three gates from the same chip or they would run too hot. That's the reason he split the two distortions in his Box-O-Trix over two 4069's and left three gates unused in each IC.

i know, etaoin. i let this module work for more than an hour these days. the IC gets really hot: i measured the 4069 at approx 65°C, the same result jürgen got with his clone using 5 of 6 gates.
according to the datasheet the 4069 is working up to 120°C IIRC. anyways you should not touch it with your finger!

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6079smith



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi fonik, I built a Wasp VCF from your original design and I was well pleased with it. The only drawback was a slightly lower output than, well, other modules I have. I never thought that the 4069 got particularly hot, but I don't think I tried touching it... (that reminds me to start another thread). I noticed that also about the CV control not being wonderful. But it works, and sounds pretty unique. Nice work, and thanks for it.

v-un-v wrote:
Try listening to The Stranglers some time. Dave Greenfield had 3 Wasps in his keyboard rig, and the synth parts on the LP "meninblack" was all Wasp

There's a coincidence, I was listening to "Black and White" this morning...
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fonik



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

6079smith wrote:
Hi fonik, I built a Wasp VCF from your original design and I was well pleased with it. The only drawback was a slightly lower output than, well, other modules I have. I never thought that the 4069 got particularly hot, but I don't think I tried touching it... (that reminds me to start another thread). I noticed that also about the CV control not being wonderful. But it works, and sounds pretty unique. Nice work, and thanks for it.

v-un-v wrote:
Try listening to The Stranglers some time. Dave Greenfield had 3 Wasps in his keyboard rig, and the synth parts on the LP "meninblack" was all Wasp

There's a coincidence, I was listening to "Black and White" this morning...

the layout from my site is a PCB layout for Jürgen Haibles Wasp clone! i just made a layout for press'n'peel blue, the circuit design is Jürgens! so all honor goes to him!

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6079smith



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
the layout from my site is a PCB layout for Jürgen Haibles Wasp clone! i just made a layout for press'n'peel blue, the circuit design is Jürgens! so all honor goes to him!


Well, I tip my hat in Jürgen's direction as well!
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crashlander42



Joined: Oct 21, 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds great and looks great!
The Wasp filter that I built from the layout on your site is one of my favorite filters in my setup right now.

Are you going to be doing a run of boards, or releasing a press n peel layout?

I am eagerly anticipating either. Laughing

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The Alison Project



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have the previous version you posted in my synth, looks like I need some upgrading.

good job and thanks

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Peake



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Peake wrote:
I've never heard the Wasp filter. Does anyone have a link to audio please?


Try listening to The Stranglers some time. Dave Greenfield had 3 Wasps in his keyboard rig, and the synth parts on the LP "meninblack" was all Wasp Smile


Oh, then I -have- heard the Wasp before! Smile

Thanks.
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, I've been thinking on Wasps too recently... So have been interested to read through this thread and dredge it back up again.
I've got a couple of questions / ideas..

- Firstly - the original ran with a 5v single supply for the filter and Jurgen's schem had been marked like that. Matthias, did you try with 5v and 12v? I was wondering whether this'd make much difference other than headroom / where overdrive sets in.. I really want to test these circuits out and see how they respond to different input levels.

- also, I see you've got a switch to select different diodes - did you notice much difference? Hmm, different coloured LEDs have different sounds too, right? (or is it so subtle you really won't notice?)

* my main fresh idea has been to have a post filter mixer stage. I've seen something a bit similar by Craig Anderton before (in the EPFM book) - you get a three channel mixer for HP, BP, LP -- nice sound shaping, no?! This could also help bring the level back up again after the filter (especially if running at 5v). Now, I also wondered about the phase of each output - are all three in phase (I *think* they are?!)? I'd thought to use the left-over three 4069 gates as inverters for each output instead of employing them for overdrive - you'd then get a phase switch for each mix input and I'd think you'd be able to get some great tone shaping possibilities out.. Hmm, gotta try this out!

[Adding an inverter stage would, I think, just be a case of tapping the original response output with a 100k resistor, followed by a DC blocking cap (seeing that from Jurgen's Wasp schem) and then the inverter gate with another 100k resistor strung across as feedback.. ]

Any thoughts or comments?
Matthias - you said the CV response wasn't working so good on your prototype? I'm sure a number of typical lm13700 driving circuits could fit the bill perhaps?


***
Oh yeah, apparently the dirty noise band Whitehouse are characterised by the sound of the Wasp....

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numbernone



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Early Whitehouse is entirely Wasp driven. Great stuff.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugbrand wrote:
Hey, I've been thinking on Wasps too recently... So have been interested to read through this thread and dredge it back up again.
I've got a couple of questions / ideas..

- Firstly - the original ran with a 5v single supply for the filter and Jurgen's schem had been marked like that. Matthias, did you try with 5v and 12v? I was wondering whether this'd make much difference other than headroom / where overdrive sets in.. I really want to test these circuits out and see how they respond to different input levels.

my version needs a bipolar supply for the blend circuit anyway. i could try 12V though (i have always an adaptor on hand here).

Quote:
- also, I see you've got a switch to select different diodes - did you notice much difference? Hmm, different coloured LEDs have different sounds too, right? (or is it so subtle you really won't notice?)

different colored LEDs have different voltage drop values so the clipping of the filter will be different. the difference between red and yellow is only subtle, green makes a big difference. this all applies to resonance only.

Quote:
* my main fresh idea has been to have a post filter mixer stage. I've seen something a bit similar by Craig Anderton before (in the EPFM book) - you get a three channel mixer for HP, BP, LP -- nice sound shaping, no?! This could also help bring the level back up again after the filter (especially if running at 5v). Now, I also wondered about the phase of each output - are all three in phase (I *think* they are?!)? I'd thought to use the left-over three 4069 gates as inverters for each output instead of employing them for overdrive - you'd then get a phase switch for each mix input and I'd think you'd be able to get some great tone shaping possibilities out.. Hmm, gotta try this out!

do try this. i would be interested in the results, too.

Quote:
Matthias - you said the CV response wasn't working so good on your prototype? I'm sure a number of typical lm13700 driving circuits could fit the bill perhaps?

i already changed some values in the CV circuit and i am almost satisfied. as soon as i find the time i will optimize them.
the PCB layout is actually tested and ready for production. i just wanted to upload some samples before asking for advance orders/interest. however i don't have much time these days, my wife and me bought/built a house and will move in march (you know how much work this is, i guess Wink ).

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Etaoin



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
the PCB layout is actually tested and ready for production. i just wanted to upload some samples before asking for advance orders/interest.


No rush, we already have wogglebugs, Schulte compact phasers, Ray Wilson AR's and Buchla boards this month. There's only so much DIY one can do (and pay for Wink )

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fonik



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Etaoin wrote:
No rush, we already have wogglebugs, Schulte compact phasers, Ray Wilson AR's and Buchla boards this month. There's only so much DIY one can do (and pay for Wink )

that's the way i feel, too. and i still have to do half of the wiring of my klee!

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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One more thing I was wondering on was the driving of the Ca3080 (or LM13700 as I'm going to try) -- hmm, I don't really understand the internal workings so maybe I'm already falling down..

But, if we're powering the OTA with a single supply (0-5v or 0-12v or 0-15v) then can we still drive it with a standard exponential converter run off a bipolar supply? Or would be have to add in some sort of offset control? Uhh, I'm showing my lack of actual understanding here probably!

Oh well, this is on my more imminent ToDo list! I've sketched out plans for the main filter part with inverters for the outputs.....

I don't know what you'd think, Matthias, but I may be up for doing some PCBs at some point too... Dunno, I've also got a lot to juggle at the moment (don't we all!)

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Fernando



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all. Been offline for a while.

I like the Wasp very much. I never built the JH version but I played a real Wasp around '80. I like it.

I just wanted to add that the 3080 might be a better option since it can reach to a nice soft distortion when pushed a bit. I know that 13700 is easier to buy but I'd use the 3080 better... just my opinion

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fernando
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widdly



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey fonik,

I noticed in another thread you posted some samples of your wasp filter self oscilllating. I built a version straight of JH's schematic into an old expression pedal but mine never self-oscillated. What's the trick?

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-22235.html&postorder=asc&start=50

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

widdly wrote:
Hey fonik,

I noticed in another thread you posted some samples of your wasp filter self oscilllating. I built a version straight of JH's schematic into an old expression pedal but mine never self-oscillated. What's the trick?

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-22235-50.html


The capacitance of a long cable at the output!

JH.

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widdly



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I need an output buffer?
Last edited by widdly on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

widdly wrote:
I need an output buffer?


I enjoy the capability of self oscillation on my Wasp filter clone.
It's not like opamps, which often oscillate in the MHz range when loaded with a cable, after all - in the Wasp, I get oscillation near the corner frequency of the filter, and only when the resonance is all turned up. Quite nice - as if it were designed that way.

JH.

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widdly



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have re-read your Wasp Clone page and I understand what you meant by "capacitance of a long cable at the output". I will have to try this out. From building guitar effects, I'm used to long cables causing problems not fixing. Smile
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