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Is This Normal? Plan B modules.
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Is This Normal? Plan B modules. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On Thursday I have received 6 model 10 and 6 model 13 from Plan B.

I have noticed that the rise knob of one of the envelopes doesn’t work. I have exanimate the module carefully and I have noticed that it has reparation on its hardly scratched PCB. Remark that one of the legs of the transistor closes the blue cable is not soldered?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2280/2059943377_5c12fde775_b.jpg

Also, I have noticed that other of the envelopes, when you are triggering manually with the “start” switch, doesn’t send any signal by the EOA socket. And this envelope also, has the contour of its attack like if the rise knob be always at 0.

And all 6 envelopes send the same signal by the Attack/Decay Output and by the Attack1/Attack 2 output. Shocked

Last edited by Sound on Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:18 am; edited 6 times in total
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In a second more in depth examination, I have timed some attack and decays times. Look at the picture. It seems that each of the envelopes has its own personality! Look that “time base knob” affects in different way at envelope 4 and 6 than at the others ones.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2386/2060730518_587ca6d58a_b.jpg

Do you think that these modules were tested before shipping?

Last edited by Sound on Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

About the 6 model 13 Dual Timbral Gates, look at the contour switch, it is forced; maybe… they have soldered the legs of the switch before screw the switch at the front panel?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2174/2059945311_3d92fb4f44_b.jpg

Hi Guys, Any other experiences with Plan B??? Is that normal?






Best Regards,

Òscar Salas.

Last edited by Sound on Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've seen nicer work ... had this happened at my work at our workplace I think I would have taken some time for education ... Especially the repair work and the switch look ugly.

The differences between the times are quite large I'd say, and not working is defect I'd say ...

Funny you take notes on note paper, not withstanding the name Laughing

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm.. yes... Jan, I agree..
That repairwork doesn´t look too impressive.

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Sound



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi!

But I bought them like a new ones!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
But I bought them like a new ones!


I can understand your disappointment and think you should contact the manufacturer.

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Sound



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes blue hell I will.

But any of you have the model 10? Is normal that all 6 envelopes send the same signal by the Attack/Decay Output and by the Attack1/Attack2 output?

And Blue , what is the meanning of ""not withstanding the name""?




Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
And Blue , what is the meanning of ""not withstanding the name""?


Nevermind, bad joke, bad timing Very Happy

I can't help you with the specific operation of your modules, maybe someone else can.

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REwire



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Post your issues to this group:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PLAN_B_analog_blog/

Peter Grenader and other Plan-B users will be available to help.

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Sound



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

REwire wrote:
Post your issues to this group:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PLAN_B_analog_blog/

Peter Grenader and other Plan-B users will be available to help.


Thanks, I did It!
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi!

Peter Grenader have already answered me in analogueheaven e-lists.

About the ugly "reparation" one of the new modules he have said:

"...For the record, it's an acceptable rework method per the US military's PCB repair standard: MIL-STD-45662A which also applies to missiles and other projectiles which are put through much higher stress than this commercial-grade Envelope Generator..."

Awesome.

Also remarkable is that wich he have said:

"First, I will not address your issues if you insist on copying it's on-going progression to a public forum"

The fact is that I have spent about 2000€ and I have one module with a ugly reparation and with a knob that doesn't work.
Other module have a outsocket that doesn`t work and its atack contour is wiard.
The six model10 send the same signal by the atack/decay output and by the attack1/attack2 output.
The six model10 have very different atack and deckay times.
One of the model13 have an switch forced.

And he have said:

"These units were tested and operational when they left the factory" Shocked




I'm a VERY disapointed costumer of Plan B. About the delayed shipment and about the modules.

I'm sill waiting for two Model11 that I have payd on 17 september and that after some misunderstandings, Peter Grenader said, on 14 octuber, that He will send it inmediatly.





Best Regards,

Òscar.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
"...For the record, it's an acceptable rework method per the US military's PCB repair standard: MIL-STD-45662A which also applies to missiles and other projectiles which are put through much higher stress than this commercial-grade Envelope Generator..."

Awesome..


Oh yes, isn´t it great to know that your module can be used for taking out villages in Afghanistan! Booom!

Sad

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:

"First, I will not address your issues if you insist on copying it's on-going progression to a public forum"


Shocked

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dunno how to comment on this. Every vendor should accept that whatever they sell to customers will be discussed in public. I don´t see that you really have done anything wrong here. You wanted working Plan B modules, that is kinda why you bought them anyway.
As for the ugly repair, it does seem that one pin ( a transistor you said ? ) on the board isn´t connected, but I might be wrong.. still.. It would have made slightly more sense to actually tell you what had been done and why.

Did you get any info if these modules really are working as they are supposed to or not? From your description it sounds like something is not right. If so, fixing the problems and making you a happy customer seems like the easy way out rather than waving you off because you have discussed these matters in public.

BTW, doesn´t Bakis and Per have these modules too? Where is Bakis? He is always shopping totally awesome shitloads of modules all the time and I´m pretty sure he owns Plan B modules. Very Happy




Sound wrote:
Hi!

Peter Grenader have already answered me in analogueheaven e-lists.

About the ugly "reparation" one of the new modules he have said:

"...For the record, it's an acceptable rework method per the US military's PCB repair standard: MIL-STD-45662A which also applies to missiles and other projectiles which are put through much higher stress than this commercial-grade Envelope Generator..."

Awesome.

Also remarkable is that wich he have said:

"First, I will not address your issues if you insist on copying it's on-going progression to a public forum"

The fact is that I have spent about 2000€ and I have one module with a ugly reparation and with a knob that doesn't work.
Other module have a outsocket that doesn`t work and its atack contour is wiard.
The six model10 send the same signal by the atack/decay output and by the attack1/attack2 output.
The six model10 have very different atack and deckay times.
One of the model13 have an switch forced.

And he have said:

"These units were tested and operational when they left the factory" Shocked




I'm a VERY disapointed costumer of Plan B. About the delayed shipment and about the modules.

I'm sill waiting for two Model11 that I have payd on 17 september and that after some misunderstandings, Peter Grenader said, on 14 octuber, that He will send it inmediatly.





Best Regards,

Òscar.

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah kinda bizar how he reacted.
complaining about that oscar made complains in public.
peter did reply on a public list to instead of a private mail.
so you loose suport when you complain in public ???
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
yeah kinda bizar how he reacted.
complaining about that oscar made complains in public.
peter did reply on a public list to instead of a private mail.


Let us hope this was caused by either too little or too much coffee. I cannot believe he really means this.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have a number of Plan B modules, and I'm very pleased with them. They took a long time to arrive, and I had some communication difficulties with Peter G, but he made amends for this when he sent my order out, and I'm quite happy to deal with him again.

One of the modules, the multimode filter, had a wire soldered in the wrong place, I emailed PG about this immediately I discovered it, and after a few emails back and forth that same evening, he diagnosed the problem, which was a fix-at-home-er, as it turned out. This took about 45m-1hr, during which time PG was obv giving the matter all of his attention. I was and am very impressed w/this. A good test of a trader in my experience is how they deal with issues, and he got a 10/10 with this one.

While I can sympathise with the frustration/annoyance of receiving modules which don't appear to have been put together properly, I think immediately complaining about it on AH, without offering the manufacturer the opportunity to put it right was a mistake. I think that going public on issues like this is best used as a last resort - IE, if you complain, and don't get satisfaction, then use mail lists/boards as a method of leverage. You fired off all your canonballs in the first salvo!

The wire repair on the board is something I would consider acceptable. One of my Cynthia modules had such a repair on it when I got it. If done properly it's not going to fail. The other stuff obviously needs to be sorted out.
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Peter Grenader



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Plan B speaks Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gentleman,

I am not wishing to continue or to enter to your criticisms. Feel free to form any opinion you wish, or purchase any equipment you wish for any reason you wish.

I will however give the details on what Oscar been discussing were my actions:

Oscar complained about the rework on one of the six Model 10 EGs he received. I told him he can return any of the (12) modules I made for him through Elby Designs and I will issue a refund which can be passed to his customer (Oscar). He has elected to return all six Model 10's, which I will give Elby a refund for, even though his initial complaint was about only 1 of those six.

i would accept all 12 of the modules I delivered to him for Elby if he wished to. I have been attempting to take care of the situation.

My comment about not posting to public forums was in regard to taking excerpts from private email I was sending him and posting that information, like he has done on this list. This is a violation of my unalienable copyrights. That's what I asking asking him to stop. I confident you understand my position on this.

Quoting Oscar from this page:

<<I'm a VERY disapointed costumer of Plan B. About the delayed shipment and about the modules. >>

Please be aware that Oscar contacting me asking for custom knobs for all 12 modules - the type I use for my fine tune, sighting 'Big fingers" as the problem. I offered to swap with my normal knob without additional charge, even though the fine tune knobs are $.65 vs. $33.

I attempted to order the knobs from Mouser (the US sole distributor) and they were on backorder. I was put on the list and two weeks later received exactly 12. There was another order due in to Mouser on 11/29/07. I have not checked to see if they have arrived, feel free if you care to: they are Mouser part number 450-4011.

Feeling this delay would be too long, I then purchased knobs which were very close to what he wanted and I sent him a photograph of those and another similar knob I had in stock, the old types I used to use on the Model 15 fine tune. He elected to go with the standard knob instead.

This is what caused the delay in delivery.

It is not my intention to spread ill-will or mis-information about Oscar Salas. It was only my intention to take care of a situation that he found to be unacceptable. This is why I am refunding for six modules, not just one and have accepted his cancellation for two more that had not yet shipped which my dealer has already paid for. I will say however that there are many other details with this issue that would explain the position I have taken. It is not my business to discuss this, nor my obligation to take it public.

I hope Oscar will consider taking the same tact I have in settling this matter.

best,

- Peter Grenader

Last edited by Peter Grenader on Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to see the good suport Peter!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Plan B speaks Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peter Grenader wrote:
I am not wishing to continue or to enter to your criticisms.


I had hoped you might, but want to still thank you for letting us know about your side of the story.

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bubblechamber



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

all I have to say as someone who has built modules commercially, for Peter to try and defend the workmanship of the piece pictured as acceptable is kind of lame. the only reasonable response to the problem was to promise a new unit and a profuse apology. but that's not really the Plan B style...
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello,

First of all, I want to thank all you for your support.

It is clear that if I didn’t publish it here, I would be discussing about this matter with the manufacturer Peter Grenader with answers from him like:

Quote:
...For the record, it's an acceptable rework method per the US military's PCB repair standard: MIL-STD-45662A which also applies to missiles and other projectiles which are put through much higher stress than this commercial-grade Envelope Generator...
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Balance of this matter:


In September 17 I ordered and paid six model 10, six model 13 and two model 11. On November 23, I received six modules 10 and six model 13 in unacceptable conditions.

After publishing this matter on the internet we agreed in returning the 6 model 10 but after I sent it, I detected a hilarious cross talk in one model 13 so I have also returned all 6 model 13.

Due to a clear negligence from Peter Grenader I had a lot of inconveniences like a project I had was spoiled, I have lost a lot of time and illusion and I had 2200€ frozen for some time.

It is remarkable that: I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY KIND OF APOLOGIZE.

On the contrary, I had to listen an offended Mr Grenader making great personal accusations against me like:
That my intention was “do public damage to Plan B's reputation”. I’m wondering if the reputation of a manufacturer is made from the silence of his customers.
That I have a”history of doing the very same thing with other manufacturers”.
So, what is he referring to? I don’t have the right to complain as a customer? Maybe he’s referring to my DEFECTIVE Cwejman S1Mk2? It has already flown twice to Sweden without solution. Should I feel happy and shut up?

In the meantime, I could read on analogue heaven e-lists and in his yahoo friend group (from which I was banned) how a gentle Mr. Grenader put my matter as if it weren’t important:

http://www.nabble.com/An-apology-p14187125.html




Peter Grenader wrote:
…even though his initial complaint was about only 1 of those six.”


It is no true

The initial complaint was over the whole shipment. You only need to read three first posts of this thread or this mail that I have sent to analogue heaven mail lists little time later

http://www.nabble.com/Is-that-Normal--Plan-B-modules.-p13930720.html

Peter Grenader wrote:

Quoting Oscar from this page:

<<I'm a VERY disappointed costumer of Plan B. About the delayed shipment and about the modules. >>

Please be aware that Oscar contacting me asking for custom knobs for all 12 modules - the type I use for my fine tune, sighting 'Big fingers" as the problem. I offered to swap with my normal knob without additional charge, even though the fine tune knobs are $.65 vs. $33.

I attempted to order the knobs from Mouser (the US sole distributor) and they were on backorder. I was put on the list and two weeks later received exactly 12. There was another order due in to Mouser on 11/29/07. I have not checked to see if they have arrived, feel free if you care to: they are Mouser part number 450-4011.

Feeling this delay would be too long, I then purchased knobs which were very close to what he wanted and I sent him a photograph of those and another similar knob I had in stock, the old types I used to use on the Model 15 fine tune. He elected to go with the standard knob instead.

This is what caused the delay in delivery.


This is not true. This is a shame.

First of all I only asked Peter about the mouser number reference of the thin knobs that he uses in his model 12. He offered me to change the knobs and he said that he needed to order it to mouser and it would take only one week of delay. After that week I mailed him asking for the state of my order but I didn’t get an answer. After a reminder one week later he said that the knobs had arrived with delay and that the modules were in the final test and that he would send them the same afternoon. Some days later I mailed him asking for the state of my order without an answer. It seems that he sent me an e-mail that I didn’t receive informing me about a problem with the knobs that he had received. It means, also, that he had not received my last mail.
In any case, the supposed misunderstanding of the knobs was cleared in October 14 and he said that he would send them immediately.
No more news.
I received the modules on November 23 and the modules were shipped November 13, with a cardboard inside the box that said: “Models 11 are in 2 separate shipments, which will be shipped in 5 days". That was his way to inform a customer.

There are a lot of mails that I swapped with an offended Peter. On one of them in 26 November I asked him for the 2 missing modules which were supposed to arrive 5 days after the first shipment and he answered like a normal thing: “We are still awaiting faceplates for the new batch of M11's.”

How can he blame me afterwards for the delay of the shipments?

It is not just the delay that made me angry. Most of all it was the fact I never knew what was going on with my shipments…

When the modules arrived and after a complete day testing the modules I decided to publish it on internet because it was unacceptable! It was a shame! Who does he think he is to play and not be serious with my time and my money?

I bought 2.200EUR in modules and he sent me problems. I solved them in the way that I believed that it would be the fastest.

How can any manufacturer, after all that, show himself as the offended victim?

Anyway, now I got my money back. I have lost a lot of time, illusion and nerves over this matter so I cannot accept that after all these inconveniences I should be the one to blame! I would understand it if just one of the twelve machines that arrived had an error, it would be a human mistake and that would be all. But I cannot accept so many different errors after so much delay without feedback. In the best of the cases, it is clear that these machines were not tested before shipment. I did not have any intention or any interest to harm any Mr. Grenader, I only want to get what I order in good conditions as any normal customer. I cannot accept that there was no apology for something that was unacceptable and that on the contrary the manufacturer blamed his customer for his negligence. It is surrealistic!



Best Regards,

Oscar Salas.
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