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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Leslie / CLS-222 / Rotating Speaker ?
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Does the worls need a modern CLS-222 ?
Yes, please! I always wanted a 222!
60%
 60%  [ 12 ]
Every Multi-FX box has a Leslie emulation - thanks, no!
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Hey, there is a good Leslie emulation available already! (Please name it.)
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
I have the real thing - I don't need an emulation.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Used CLS-22's are cheap - why bother building my own?
10%
 10%  [ 2 ]
Don't talk about another new project - go and sell your darn Frequency Shifter first !!
25%
 25%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 20

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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Leslie / CLS-222 / Rotating Speaker ?
Subject description: Is there any demand for something that could replace a CLS-222 ?
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Subject says it all.
Nobody has yet emulated a Leslie cabinet perfectly.
The analogue, quad BBD based, Dynacord CLS-22 and CLS-222 provided an impressive rotating speaker effect that - while not a Leslie - defined a reference of its own, for all kinds of analogue and digital emulations, though.
(Dynacord themselves failed miserably when they tried to make a digital version of their classic effect.)
I've built a clone of the CLS-222 almost 20 years ago - I wonder if there is any interest in an analogue rotating speaker device, in form of a PCB for DIY projects. I'd have to redesign it in many respects - loads of obsolete parts in there. (4 TDA1022's among them, which I helped making rare, myself. Embarassed )

Let me know if you're interested.

JH.

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germaniac



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey JH!

By all reviews the CLS-222 is top notch, and since I'm sure a work-alike done by you would be equally good, count me in!

Thanks to chipforbrains on Ebay, I've got plenty of TDA1022's now too. . . . Cool

Regards,
Joe
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v8pete



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jurgen - WOW now there's an idea Very Happy

The odd thing that's always intrigued me about the whole Hammond/Leslie replication thing is that, on paper at least, you’d think it would be a great deal simpler to replicate a convincing Hammond/Leslie sound that it would be to replicate that of a Piano – so why is it that up until very recently virtually all of the Hammond clones sounded like c**p whilst the vast majority of sampled digital pianos (and even the earlier FM pianos such as the Yamaha PF10/15 for instance) were on the whole pretty decent sounding useable instruments!

As a working semi-pro player, I’ve been through virtually all the recent B3 clones and the like (from the EMU Vintage Keys/ EMU B3 / Korg Toneworks Leslie sim ) and none of these got anywhere near hitting the spot for me. Not until my acquisition of a Clavia Nord Electro, have I owned or played anything that sounded remotely like a real B3 / Leslie combo. The Clavia is the first clone that I’ve played that has a sufficiently organic quality that you actually start to believe that you’re playing a real instrument, and not just triggering a bunch of second-rate samples as is the case for the vast majority of digital emulations that have gone before.

I remember a professional keyboard playing friend of mine having a Dynacord 222 back in the mid ‘80’s and being pretty impressed with the sound (using it with a Korg M1 back then). Not having heard one in a long while, I’ve just been over to Modezero.com and listened to a couple of the audio samples – unfortunately they don’t have a sample of it being used on an organ sound(!) but what you can instantly hear is the total lack of that awful warble – kind of like bad chorus – that you get from many of the poor Leslie emulations. In my view, the Leslie simulation has to be that weird dichotomy of powerful in character, but subtle at the same time – very much in the same way as the Dim D achieves this in the world of chorus effects.

The other two qualities that seem the hallmark of a good Leslie simulation (aside from getting the whole ‘rotating speaker’ model right in terms of what’s going on with Doppler and all that !) are the overall frequency response and of course the dynamics of the spin up/down system. Here, I find that although the Clavia doesn’t have the facility to program the spin up/down rates, the values that they’ve pre-set are pretty much the universal sweet-spot, for me at least – but it would still be nicer to be able to tweak around! Lastly, the overdrive simulation, whilst not bad, is probably one of the really weak areas – although it doesn’t suffer too much from the digital ‘fizz’, it is rather all-or-nothing, and plays havoc with the overall dynamics when your playing and trying to use the swell pedal etc during a gig.

So to sum up, a CLS-222 style project would be very interesting indeed – especially if it could also incorporate tube overdrive !! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil (please see my enthusiastic comments over on the Chorus thread!).

Pete.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v8pete wrote:

I remember a professional keyboard playing friend of mine having a Dynacord 222 back in the mid ‘80’s and being pretty impressed with the sound (using it with a Korg M1 back then).


Two things that set it apart from other emulations: They do the doppler effect right: Linear modulation of delay time, not of clock frequency!
And they seem to also model the first reflection of the horn's sound in the cabinet, along with the direct sound. (Or at least that's how I interpret the circuit.)

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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TheAncientOne



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What about the Schaller 'Rotosound'?, which I seem to remember was another optical based device.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TheProf wrote:
What about the Schaller 'Rotosound'?, which I seem to remember was another optical based device.


I think I've seen one of these once, but I don't remember any details.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Peake



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, a lot of the sound is the overdriven tube electronics and tube source, along with the crossed-over dopplering.

Perhaps have Ken Stone add a tube section ala' his tube VCA?
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Pehr



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Have you guys seen Rays Stereo Panner? Cool

It has Leslie speaker spin up/down simulation. However, I have no idea how close to original it sounds. Confused

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Pehr wrote:
Have you guys seen Rays Stereo Panner? Cool

It has Leslie speaker spin up/down simulation. However, I have no idea how close to original it sounds. Confused


Nice panorama effect, but as far as I cn tell no doppler effect.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Pehr



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
...but as far as I cn tell no doppler effect.


aha, of course! Very Happy I haven't thought of that. Cool! Cool

Do you have a sample how it can sound?

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Dave Kendall



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi JH.
I'd be interested in a Leslie clone - I'd be up for 2 boards - and I second the idea of an overdrive too.
Ken's CGS65 circuit certainly sounds good - it would make a good addition, or as a companion module. Built-in would be best though, if it were possible Smile

cheers,
Dave
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FWIW, speaking of overdrive, an OTA-type distorter might be a direction worth investigating too. I recently built an overdrive for entirely different purposes (guitar), using an OTA-type circuit, and it sure sounds good. Moog's distortion circuit used a 3080 and Craig Anderton did a 3080 distorter too. I chose to use discrete components rather than a chip OTA, but the results are practically the same. Anyway, being as guitarists can be sort of neurotic about such things, I can testify that this method of distortion has answered all my dreams. Overdrive-wise, I have arrived. . . . Very Happy

Regards,
Joe
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Dave Kendall



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds interesting Joe. Devices that work for guitar don't always do so well with line level signals (for a whole bunch of interconnected reasons)
Have you tried your distortion box with synths? How's it behave?

cheers,
Dave (intruiged.....)
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Dave!

Dave Kendall wrote:
Devices that work for guitar don't always do so well with line level signals (for a whole bunch of interconnected reasons)
Have you tried your distortion box with synths?


Quite true, and no I haven't got round to plugging line-levels into it. As you say, my particular unit is set-up for guitar levels, but OTOH, the Moog device was intended for synths (somewhere online is the patent). Also a similar OTA topology is useful for triangle-to-sine conversion. Scott Stites has an example of a Thomas Henry circuit here:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/th_sine_shape.jpg

And now I just recalled that JH himself has an OTA-type overdriver circuit (though his cheats a bit by using diode clippers as well), somewhere on his pages. I'm sure he has a very well-informed opinion of its possibilities!

Regards,
Joe
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bergman



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi everyone! I actually joined this forum when i saw this!

Although I'm more of guitar oriented when it comes to leslie effects (I also play a rhodes and a microcon by technosaurus) i can say this effect is the best panning-rotary sound ever, i really don't care if it sounds like a leslie or not although everybody says it does...


c'mon guys... JUST HEAR IT!!!

check mode zero:
http://www.modezero.com/dynacord-cls222.htm

and Hammond Corner:
http://www.hammondcorner.de/page2/page1/page1.html


There's NOTHING like it IMO. I would be as happy to see a board with or without overdrive implementation. I don't mind if it sounds like a real leslie, I just LOVE the darn thing!

So YES, PLEASE.

lovely forum btw!
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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmmmnn....

I really wasn't thinking much about this project too much before, and had checked the Mode Zero samples, but not that other hammond site....

Gotta admit, the spread on the 222 is very impressive, as is the bottom end (the direct sample sounds anemic in comparison....)

If this were going to happen, it would be nice to see a good overdrive circuit included, perhaps a separate circuit which could be independently switched in and bypassed....

I seem to be a convert to processors that create depth and movement, so a lot of where JH is going is of interest.... Too many GREAT projects JH! My pocketbook complains, but I can't say that I do! ;-P

Thanks for the hammond link, and welcome aboard! Wink

Gav.
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bergman



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the welcome!

I agree that the bypassable overdrive is a good idea.

It's just that (as a guitarist) I find od's the most personal thing you can think of (apart from fuzzes probably).

I personally haven't tried them with a CLS but my favourite OD's to use with modulation effects that i think would fit the bill are:

japanese BOSS SD-1
fulltone OCD

both can be found in the net, maybe the OCD is a bit rarer but I can provide the schems/pcb designs althought they're not mine.

Probably for the leslie thing i'd pick the BOSS one since it's a bit grittier/dirtyer and just seems to be more suited for that in my "final sound scheme" imagination.


also it's really important to know if they'll sound better before or after. I know in the real thing it's the preamp that does the distortion but that doesn't mean that that is the way to go on a simulator. My digital leslie simulator works better with the BOSS after it, I don't know about the headroom of the CLS, but i guess it'll be the same, od before the effect is harsher although less dramatic.

if you want to go valve (although i don't think its necessary) i have a delay called the ECHODRIVE from SIB! effects wich has a valve pre that works absolutely wonders for everything. I think the pre is the same circuit as their FATDRIVE pedal. I don't know if it's available as schem anywhere but if anyone's interested maybe i could provide pics (i'm not keen on tracing, my DIY abilities are quite lame as for now)

gavgomad: I'm also a fan of "3-d'ish" effects, I have a dc-2 myself!

anyways.... GO JH!! Wink
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bergman



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i was thinking about this thing again...

about the overdrive.. if you want to go overdrive after it there have to be 2 od circuits...

but i also think it would be great to have stereo in's... i always thought it was the only thing missing in my dc-2 chorus and other boxes with great stereo effect
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Peake



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was wondering if the effect will be set or variable. Some folks only mic one side of the cabinet, others sum a front and rear mic, IIRC (been way too long, so correct me where I'm forgetting).

And welcome to the forum, Bergman!
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bergman



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi peake!

i don't know if i got your question, my mother language is not english... however i do my best! Laughing

the effect sounds like a leslie with two "horns" mic'd by two "mics".

each "mic" goes to a line (right & left) and the "horns" rotate at different speeds, so each "horn" pans certain frecuencies between the "mics" at A different rate... delivering the spacey sound.

anyways if you hear the MP3s with apair of headphones you'll get the picture WAY better.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm currently soldering a circuit on veroboard that will use my Scanner Vibrato PCB and transform it into a rotating horn - hopefully.

I'm trying in improoved version of the Dynacord CLS-222 speed control (adding a variable shape from linear to exponential rise and fall times), and quadrature LFO and a panner.

Let's see if this gives a convincing result.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here are some first demos.
Please keep in mind that this is no Leslie emulation - it's just an emulation of a Rotor (as if the full raudio range, bass and all, would go thru a wide range horn that is rotating). For a Leslie, I need a second modulation for the bass range, and crossover.

As with all rotating speaker emulations, there's the qquestion of how pronouced the volume and pan modulation should be. (Close miking vs. sound from a certain distance.)
In the longer demo, I'm steadily increasing the pan modulation and the volume modulation.

JH.


jh_scanvib_rotor_1.mp3
 Description:
short demo with moderate panning

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 Filename:  jh_scanvib_rotor_1.mp3
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jh_scanvib_rotor_increasing_pan.mp3
 Description:
slight longer demo with slow speed, gradually increasing the pan modulation

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 Filename:  jh_scanvib_rotor_increasing_pan.mp3
 Filesize:  858.5 KB
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_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That last MP3 was sweet. Very hypnotic!
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm sorry for being such a luddite, but I don't think you can ever replace the subtlety of the real thing (but don't let me stop you going ahead with this emulator JH!). I love the sound of the voice through a leslie too. The one thing that the emulators never quite catch is the 'scratchy' sound created by compression horns

Recommended listening;

Cluster II by German group Cluster. The ultimate headphone LP!!
Tangerine Dream- Rubycon (lots of piano through a leslie)
Pink Floyd- "Echoes". Also very leslie spacey
Cottonwoodhill Psychonaut by Brainticket. The ultimate Dutch psychedelic LP. Absolutely everything is going through rotating speakers. Wonderful Very Happy

I think Rotorsound made a fairly decent emulator. I remember that it sounded good on the early Portishead LP's

In my totally white room containing nothing but an EMS VCS3 and a Revox, there will also be two Leslie speakers in the room too! %¬D

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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I really like that rotor sound, JH!

BTW, would it require a full second scanner chorus board for the drum emulation?

Although it is difficult to replace a real Leslie, I love anything which MOVES the sound....

The samples of the CLS-222 moved in a way that I very much liked. I also find that just in chorus/vibrato mode (mono), the scanner chorus moves the sound in a very pleasing way as well. The rotor sample, too, is very pleasing to the ear - lots of movement, but very clean and smooth... almost hi-fi!

I hope this experiment works - the results are excellent so far! Smile

G
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