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moog modular vcf?
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:54 am    Post subject: moog modular vcf? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was looking at JH's site and reading about his Moog-style modular system. The VCF he built is based on the Moog modular VCF and he describes how this this has a different sound than the Minimoog VCF. I've noticed a good number of DIY Minimoog VCF projects out there but couldn't find any DIY projects/PCBs for a Moog modular VCF. Does anyone know of any out there? How different does this filter sound from the Minimoog VCF?
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Peake



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WHAT!!? Do people want to join "The Church of Moog"? Laughing

Don't you know that it uses mylar caps in the core and as such, DRIFTS? A LOT? And that the passband reduces in volume in proportion to any increase in resonance? And that it has inaccurate frequency response in the bass region? And that the Q is non-linear across the response range? And you have to switch between three frequency ranges?

Wouldn't everyone rather have a nice, accurate, constant-Q, distorting Curtis filter IC? Wink

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prophei



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hahahaha

THE HORROR Shocked
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Peake



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyhoo, the Moog oscillators are a large part of why the filter is often credited as the heart of the system, of the Moog Sound. Put dead oscillators through it and poof- you lose the majority of what makes the Moog sound like it does.

This is not mind control. Think about it.

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah with some 901's succes guaranteed.
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to know. Any DIY oscillator projects based on the 901s?
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Peake



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
Good to know. Any DIY oscillator projects based on the 901s?


I'm certain that something is brewing somewhere, and that something might also be for sale somewhere, although be careful if it's not done for the love of the instrument- bad juju reduces your pleasure and brings the entire place down several notches. I know this as certainly as I know that the Moog oscillators are a very large part of the Moog Sound.

I could be convinced to do a DIY of the 901a/b, but you wouldn't want it because it would have all that mistracking, drift, and imperfect waveforms. You'd hate me if I gave you imperfect oscillators. Never forgive me and such. (Unforgiveness is as much a human characteristic as imperfection is a Moog characteristic.) And an imperfect filter- did you read my description? WHOA! The oscillators are far worse. Run away, run away now. Why don't you get the new DoubleDeka oscillator instead? It's stable for days and tracks amazingly, etc. Shrug.

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
Why don't you get the new DoubleDeka oscillator instead? It's stable for days and tracks amazingly, etc. Shrug.

You can deliberately mistune it if that is what you want. The point of having stable oscillators is that you can control them according to your needs, and not be stuck with the built-in characteristics. But I'm sure it doesn't have any "juju", whatever that is.

Very Happy

Ian
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Peake



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Peake wrote:
Why don't you get the new DoubleDeka oscillator instead? It's stable for days and tracks amazingly, etc. Shrug.

You can deliberately mistune it if that is what you want. The point of having stable oscillators is that you can control them according to your needs, and not be stuck with the built-in characteristics. But I'm sure it doesn't have any "juju", whatever that is.

Very Happy

Ian


Juju is the consequence of anything done with bad intent- such as the petrol prices we're currently enjoying. Whoops- they're temporarily going down again just prior to an election. Imagine that.

And old flame wars include the information that to get something to begin to start to act like an early Moog, much money must be spent and much time must be spent- not worth it, when the answer is right there. It's like mixing on NS10s. Sound like crap, force you to bend over backwards to get something good. Why go through all of that effort? Why don't others consider that effort to be ridiculous? That's rhetorical- I know that I'm alone in these things Cool

No one wants mistuned, mistracking, drifting, imperfect waveform oscillators. Or filters that drift Shocked

BTW, best luck with your new oscillator. I certainly would consider dropping in 741s and a mylar cap in the core.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have a 1972 Moog Modular - bought it new. It's a special instrument, but I don't see anything special about the sound. It does have a characteristic sound, but it's too noisy for me to use much.

I use almost exclusively a Nord Modular G2, but I'm moving towards developing my own VST synths.

If anyone is in my area, give me a PM I'll be happy to let you try the Moog.

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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Part of what even made me curious about building any modules based on Moog modules is getting the type of sound in this sample - the 4 line repeated pattern. As I understand it is something you could really only get with a Moog? Maybe would be possible with Minimoog modules as well.


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Peake



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I have a 1972 Moog Modular - bought it new. It's a special instrument, but I don't see anything special about the sound. It does have a characteristic sound, but it's too noisy for me to use much.


No offense intended, but there are plenty of people who feel otherwise who would be happy to take it off your hands and to make constant use of it, keeping it in tip-top condition. If it's not serving your creative needs, please consider allowing it to fulfill someone else's. Many know that sound and dream about it at night.

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mosc you probbaly needto recap it to get rid off the noise.

But if you want those crazy Rubycon sequences you really want a 901 vco bank with the 904a and 902 and 911 modules Smile
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wouldn't want to recap my Moog, then it wouldn't sound like a Moog. That noise was there from the very first day.
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synthetic



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OP, Jurgen licensed his design to Synthtech to make the MOTM 490 filter. You can purchase the board and some parts from the Synthtech site, as well as MOTM-format panel, pots and knobs. Or you can just use the board as the basis for your own DIY project.

I have one and I love it. It kills my Moog Voyager filter.

http://www.synthtech.com/motm490.html
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Peake



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"Based upon" is good enough for most people. Go for it (I'm looking into original parts, layout, power, etc., for as close to The Real Thing as is possible). Did Jurgen used mylar caps in the core? I've heard modified Moog oscillators with modern power supplies etc., and when you begin tightening things up, something important goes away. Something -interesting-. Perhaps you don't want something as drifty as the original 904a, but I'll certainly say that you definitely don't want something unmoving. Not interesting. Rock and roll is not about rigidity.

Then again, people never want the "real thing"- they want some idealized, sanitized expectation. That supermodel in the magazine has been airbrushed, friend. Real women have zits and body odor. Well, knowing this doesn't limit the sale of supermodel-related items. Shrug. Shop as usual; avoid panic buying...

Mosc, unless you're patching a 904b -after- the last filter in any chain, excepting a minute amount of hiss evident in the 902 when doing really dark bass sounds, there isn't any reason for you to experience truly objectionable hiss in a Moog system. Placing the 904b prior to the a solves that problem in many types of patches, so long as the LPF is kept moderately low. Not the most pleasant work-around, but I've owned -several- Moogs Modulars, of various sizes (went through lots and lots of synths of every type back when individual SEMs were $125.00 and you couldn't get rid of a Minimoog) and behold, no objectionable hiss. I owned one system for many years and same thing. It samples beautifully; used it on some sessions for one of the big 3 keyboard manufacturers. Even limiting it by 10dB or so did not result in objectionable noise. A solution which does not bother me, is to replace the 902 with something truly quiet plus incredible dynamic range, like the Selector VCA (I don't know if any other modern VCA matches this one, except likely the Wiard).

What are the conditions under which you are experiencing something truly objectionable? Or are you just rattling my chain? Wink

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Peake



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

synthetic wrote:
OP, Jurgen licensed his design...I have one and I love it. It kills my Moog Voyager filter.


Snort- Then why do you still own a Voyager if it is killed by something else? (That's as rhetorical as your statement is silly- I won't be looking for a reply.)

The thread has left the building, but I won't stop building.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
What are the conditions under which you are experiencing something truly objectionable? Or are you just rattling my chain? Wink


I'm not rattling your chain, but the main reason I don't use the Moog too much now is because I use a G2X. Nothing about the sound of the Moog is so objectionable to prevent me from using it. The hiss and noise is not very bad and it adds charm to the sound.

As for the oscillators, the sawteeth on the Moog have a very distinctive sound. I like it very much.

My main interest these days is live performance, and I've made it so that I can take all my gear with me in one trip from the car to the stage with no helpers. The Moog is a teaching rig, and for use with recordings, or for friends who visit.

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Peake



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Again, hiss and noise are not part of any "normal" "Minimoog" style patch. I know that you know this.

I love all of the tangents and contradictions in this thread! Lets me know that people are uncomfortable, and looking for a way to be comfortable.

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widdly



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

blah blah blah....anyway..

What are the differences sound wise and electrically between the minimoog filter and the moog modular filter? Anything of significance? Anything worth pursuing?

Last edited by widdly on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Peake



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

widdly wrote:
blah blah blah....anyway..


How very rude.

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widdly



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
widdly wrote:
blah blah blah....anyway..


How very rude.


Not intended as contumelious, just attempting to indicate that the original question had not really been answered despite the contradictions, tangents and disquietude.

Last edited by widdly on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Peake



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Suggesting that a link to a non-DIY, commercial product does not solve the problem? I agree, especially if it does not utilize mylar caps in the core. Drift is an audible characteristic of the 904a. Lose the drift, and it won't sound the same. I suggest that any DIY project relating to the 904a utilize the same choices as made by Bob Moog, using what Frijitz in his DoubleDeka thread called his excellent ears. Or it won't sound the same.
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synthetic



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, I liked to JH's actual design that you can buy. Peake thinks it needs more drift and stuff, shocker. Wink

Oh, and I keep the Voyager as it's an instrument I can play, as opposed to the modular which is best for spacey stuff. I may exchange it for a vintage Mini one day.
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Peake



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps you missed my reply to your inappropriately non-DIY, commercial solution in a DIY thread in response to a DIY question:

"'Based upon' is good enough for most people. Go for it.."

???

Then you insult the professional perceptions of someone who has been working full-time in synthesis and sound for far longer than you? I love the internet. Please don't feel bad if I cannot get anything at all out of your posts; they do not include useful or contextually appropriate information.

I've used digital synths since they arrived, and yes, I am quick to enjoy the beauty of anything not so locked into the "infinitely unchanging". Characteristics of life: Movement, unpredictability. Characteristics of death: Utter lack of movement, rigidity, utter predictability. (Edit: For God's sake, that's a description, not a threat. Get a life. Or lively modules.) Odd how the latter also describes Republicanism. Then again, nearly half of the voters in the States chose Bush, twice. How unusual is it that I am constantly up against such resistance? Not unusual. At least in digital synths, there are free modulation sources, of a sufficient quantity to subtly vary time, frequency, and amplitude...you don't have to waste modules and have total recall. Digital synths have evolved, but modular has de-volved. Bizarre.

Also odd how humor is usually movement in an unexpected direction. Constructive humor brings joy. Musically moving musical compents do as well. At minimum, the all-essential Interest.

BTW, I'm told by Yusson in another forum that either COTK or MOS-LABs use the THAT arrays to avoid hand-matching all of those transistors (many matched pairs required in The Filter). Moog DIY'ers might wish to follow that path, unless matching trannies isn't too unfriendly a process to them or spending that much on the arrays offends (in relation to hand-matching).

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