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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Reaktor
Feigenbaum's Chaotic Ecosystem - Macro
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diskonext



Joined: Aug 26, 2004
Posts: 307
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:31 am    Post subject: Feigenbaum's Chaotic Ecosystem - Macro Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a simple implementation of Mitchell Feigenbaum's classic chaotic formula:

X(t+1) = G * X(t) - (1 - X(t))

When 3.53 < G < 4 chaotic behaviour ensues.

Any event in the E-input outputs the next number. All output should be 0 < x < 1 for your scaling pleasure.

TODO:
a reset button for deterministic results.

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Last edited by diskonext on Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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diskonext



Joined: Aug 26, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Attachment:


Feigenbaum.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  28.01 KB
 Viewed:  9515 Time(s)

Feigenbaum.jpg



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Last edited by diskonext on Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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diskonext



Joined: Aug 26, 2004
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Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmmm,

I seem to be having some problems postng attachments.

When I view that picture locally in IE I have no problems. I'll post the macro as well Sad

--- pause ---

I can't post .mdl files... Wink


The Extension '' was deactivated by an board admin, therefore this Attachment is not displayed.


Feigenbaum.zip
 Description:
Feigenbaum's ecosystem

Download
 Filename:  Feigenbaum.zip
 Filesize:  1.1 KB
 Downloaded:  325 Time(s)


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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry for the problem posting attachements. That is fixed now. Embarassed

I just added mdl files to the list of extensions to accept. If you have any other extensions you need for Reaktor, just let me know via PM.
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diskonext



Joined: Aug 26, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool,

thanks for that.

Updated the .jpg.

-diskonext

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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Before I start trying to build this for the NM G2, let me ask,

shouldn't it be X(t+1) = G * X(t) - (1 - X(t)) ?

do you do this for control type signals or audio rate?

is this noticibly different than a random signal?

is,
X(t+1) = G * X(t) - (1 - X(t)) the same as
X(t) = G * X(t -1) - (1 - X(t-1)) ?
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diskonext



Joined: Aug 26, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes,

you're right, I made a typo in the original post, I'll correct it.

The two equations you wrote in your post are identical.

Before you start working on the G2 patch check out http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~clark/nordmodularbook/nm_book_toc.html under the section Chaos (or something), I took it from there.
There it is argued that the progressions found in chaotic systems are 'pseudo-periodic' and have potential to be ear-pleasing. This depends on your view on ear-pleasingness of course Wink

I never tried this at audio-rates, it would produce... interesting waveforms I guess... Let me know how that sounded if you try.

-diskonext

[editor's note: took the comma of the end of the modularbook link -- mosc]

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the reference. I know Jim's book. I'm not surprised the Rob Hordijk has already done this... Laughing

I assume you know Rob...
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diskonext



Joined: Aug 26, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know Rob, actually. Is he a fellow The Hagueian?

I saw that one of the dutchies writing about the NM is associated with Koorenhuis (a fine arts/music centre here in The Hague), is that Rob?

A plus for chaotic systems would be that even if they were 'true' random (not from the cryptographers standpoint, but anyway...) they offer an easy way to reset them, and play the same random sequence over and over.

-diskonext

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

diskonext wrote:
I don't know Rob, actually. Is he a fellow The Hagueian?

I saw that one of the dutchies writing about the NM is associated with Koorenhuis (a fine arts/music centre here in The Hague), is that Rob?


Yes he is but the one you pointed out is Roland Kuit. And there is one more, at least, Wout Blommers also lives in the Hague, a very electronic city it seems.

In the past we've been having NM events in 'het Koorenhuis'. Here are some very old pictures :

http://www.ibisman.com.au/NordModDay.htm

Jan.
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diskonext



Joined: Aug 26, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes,

The Hague is sooo boring everyone is sitting inside twidlling their knobs, I guess.

Wink

-diskonext

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play



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I started applying this macro to audio signals and it took quite a bit of tweaking to get interesting results. I'll post the instrument tonite when I get home.

I've had much better results using radom event generators to trigger envelopes that control pitch, amplitude and freq modulation.

I tried using this macro in a sequencing context as well with much better results. There's just not quite enough randomness in it for my taste but it's interesting.
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diskonext



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice to see you used it,

indeed on audio-rates it does not yield all too interesting results. Perhaps if you use it as a modulation source on a sine, and use the resulting sound as part of a richer sound it might yield some (better) results.

Or use the event output to switch direction in a note-sequence (when x > .5).

I'll be trying to implement the 2-dimensional chaotic system as well, which outputs two interrelated chaotic variables. That's going to be murder, though... Wink

-diskonext

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diskonext



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And one other thing:

for different values of G you get either converging or oscillating systems. Especially the converging systems might be nice to implement arp's with. If a reset button is added and G is varied upon reset you can start listening to arp's/sequences until you find nice values of G.

This is true for 'chaotic' values of G as well, of course. But the converging would lead to a complex melody slowly thinning out to a stable system.

-diskonext

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Rob



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
diskonext wrote:
I don't know Rob, actually. Is he a fellow The Hagueian?

I saw that one of the dutchies writing about the NM is associated with Koorenhuis (a fine arts/music centre here in The Hague), is that Rob?


Yes he is but the one you pointed out is Roland Kuit. And there is one more, at least, Wout Blommers also lives in the Hague, a very electronic city it seems.

In the past we've been having NM events in 'het Koorenhuis'. Here are some very old pictures :

http://www.ibisman.com.au/NordModDay.htm

Jan.


Here is a more recent picture, I guess you recognize this is at restaurant De Klap. From left to right: me, Wout, Lies and Howard enjoying the 'boring life' in The Hague. Smile
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

And here Mosc is the honoured guest in my little private studio:
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

/Rob

Btw, I have nothing at all to do with the Koorenhuis, its another scene I'm not associated with. Actually, there are several scenes in The Hague doing the electronic music thang, but it seems there is little contact between these scenes.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yikes... I have lost 30 pounds, 13.6 Kg, since that picture.

I feel like a different person. Rob, I'll have to come back to The Hague and do the visit again. Laughing

[Editor's note: Rob, I changed your URL tags to IMG tags so the pics would show in line. Click the edit button on your post and you'll see how that works. ]

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zynthetix



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is intriguing. I tried making a reaktor patch implementing multiple chaotic scenarios controlled by one knob (varied constants used where necessary). I could use another opinion as to if this implementation was correct or possible improvements.


chaos2.zip
 Description:
Zipped reaktor ensemble of logistic equation - Feigenbaum's Chaos theory

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zynthetix



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is an mp3 and picture of my reaktor intrument so those who do not have the software are not entirely left out of the sonic results or architecture concepts from this thread.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


chaos2.mp3
 Description:
60kbs quality mp3 of chaos2.ens for reaktor. 4 "chaos" control knob adjustments every several seconds for a total of 40 seconds.

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 Filename:  chaos2.mp3
 Filesize:  318.91 KB
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play



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

interesting. I would add a square wav and triangle and have a crossfade between them controlled by an LFO or another, similar random event data generator. This would make it even more random sounding and add a wider variety of phrases.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the feedback. Attatched is a sample of what I came up with, Tri, Saw, Square waveforms added with a crossfader.


chaos4.mp3
 Description:
chaos system triggering sine, sqr, tri, saw waves thru a crossfade

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 Filename:  chaos4.mp3
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nifty.

Thought I might offer up this track. It's a recording of one monster self-generating instrument built in reaktor. I wish I could supply the .ins file but alas, it is gone.

http://noiseusse.org/download.php?track=47
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Track47 is a good one. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oh yeah. it's called 'feed' or 'speed' from this:
http://noiseusse.org/releases.htm?artist=play&id=7
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

neat track.
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diskonext



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Neat stuff guys,

makes me wanna hop on the bandwagon as well.

Play, this entire piece was generated without user-intervention? Pretty impressive Wink

-diskonext

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