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 Forum index » How-tos » Ambiophonic Sound Reproduction
AmbiophonicDSP VST Plugin Now Available
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poldus



Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 13
Location: basque country

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Please explain what you mean by the two plugins going out of sync.

Right after booting up my laptop, on any multichannel SACD or DVD soundtrack the audio coming from the rear speakers is syncronized with that coming from the fronts but after a few minutes it will start lagging behind or running ahead. It has happened With RACE in Audiomulch as well.
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rmiller



Joined: Feb 03, 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Bethlehem PA 18018 USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject: multi-channel sync loss using dual AmbiophonicDSP plugins Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Re multi-channel surround replay ("PanAmbio 4.0"), in all the testing of AmbiophonicDSP on several PCs using two instances of the plug-in within AudioMulch, I have not had a long-term sync issue (even one sample!). Have you tried replicating the problem leaving out the plug-ins in attempting to isolate the cause? (Possibly it's a data timing problem inside Poldus' PC, either asynchronous dual 2-channel file-reading, or an AD/DA i/o issue?) Good luck, and let us all know more.
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poldus



Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 13
Location: basque country

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for your help. Good to know the AmbiophonicDSP is not to blame. I will try it on another computer and report.
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ppw72



Joined: Jan 13, 2011
Posts: 4
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Delay vs Sample Rate + Balancing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi, Thanks for your wonderful plugin. It has rekindled my love of listening to music. Just a couple of questions. I'm hosting the plugin in foobar and have files with various sample rates. When playing a 44.1khz file the delay scale is standard and behaves predictably. For files with higher sample rates the same delay setting, eg. 70ms changes to a progressively smaller value with a shorter scale of adjustment. So for a 192khz file the 70ms setting for the 44.1khz file will change to a much smaller value and result in a much shorter range of adjustment. Could you please explain the correlation between delay and sample rate and is the plugin's behaviour perfectly normal?

My other question concerns balance. I've noticed that center sources tend to pull to the right despite calibrating with test tone signals. I can counteract this somewhat with the balance control. Is this merely ambio's heightened sensitivity to balance levels or am I hearing things where they should be from conventionally recorded sources. i.e if vocals etc. are not usually panned dead center etc.

Hope my questions make sense. Thanks again. Kind regards,

Paul
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Paul,

Good questions. I will check out the delays. I thought when I coded up this plugin that the delays would take into account the sample rate. 80 micro seconds should be 80 no matter what the sample rate. If there is an error, I'll fix it an put out a new release.

As for the balance control: I found when first developing this circuit that it was very sensitive to errors in balance. We decided to put in a balance control to allow one to make corrections. This is strictly for convenience. If your system is really set up properly, then the plugin's balance shouldn't need to be adjusted. But sometimes the room acoustics is off a bit, or the recordings are off once in a while too.

I've found that once I have delay, recursion, and space set, the only thing I change is Zentrum. It seems that each recording needs a different adjustment for Zentrum.

I suggest

Delay 70 to 80
Recursion 27% ( no more than 30%)
Space about 5 to 7
Zentrum 0 to 7 ( no more than 7)

After I look into the delay calculator, I'll post something in this threads.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Delay vs Sample Rate + Balancing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ppw72 wrote:
Could you please explain the correlation between delay and sample rate and is the plugin's behaviour perfectly normal?l


I checked the code and the delay is sample rate independent. So, it works as one would expect.

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ppw72



Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks very much for the clarification and your suggestions Howard.
Cheers, Paul.
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kraut



Joined: Jun 08, 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject: honesty on the net? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Does not seem to be a concern of some developers.
I had decided to purchase the ambio plugin at the electro music store and payed by paypal.
Despite several reminders - the last one rather impolite due to the fact that I seem not to be worthy of a response after two weeks of waiting for the link with no answer - I still have made a payment w/o receiving the product, and seem to go now where fast with e-m.com.

I do not think I can retrieve my payment from paypal - they frown on retrieving money for non tangible goods - so how do I get my product?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: honesty on the net? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kraut,

Sorry you are having this problem. I'll send you a PM. I don't see any unfulfilled AmbiophonicDSP orders in the database.

--Howard

kraut wrote:
Does not seem to be a concern of some developers.
I had decided to purchase the ambio plugin at the electro music store and payed by paypal.
Despite several reminders - the last one rather impolite due to the fact that I seem not to be worthy of a response after two weeks of waiting for the link with no answer - I still have made a payment w/o receiving the product, and seem to go now where fast with e-m.com.

I do not think I can retrieve my payment from paypal - they frown on retrieving money for non tangible goods - so how do I get my product?

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kraut



Joined: Jun 08, 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,
Thank you for the download link, and the plugin is installed in foobar.
I assume an honest mistake was made, and apologize for any harsh words.
The plug in works in foobar within the vst wrapper, although foobar crashed twice in the beginning after playing for about five minutes.

I have both ambio one and the Ambiophonics DSP installed, and while changing of the settings in ambio one (a free plugin) does not to any major extend change the soundstage, the settings in Ambiophonics DSP are very noticable and one has to change the settings with caution.
Especially the "zentrum" and the "space" settings have to be adjusted with caution, and it will take some time in adjusting the settings to achieve the optimum in reproduced sound.

Foobar sends the signal in Asio mode to my enabled m audio soundcard, sampling at 48kHz, as this is the sampling frequency of dac in the hypex amp I use.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kraut,

Glad you are up and running in foobar, and that things apparently are sounding good. Feel free to post any questions and comments

As for the adjustments of the controls; after a time one gets an intuative feeling for them. With the exception of delay, I adjust them sometimes for every recording I play. You can really tell how different recording engineers deal with stereo specialty.

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kraut



Joined: Jun 08, 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this is a picture of the setting I use for almost all playback:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kraut wrote:
this is a picture of the setting I use for almost all playback:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


That's interesting. Every system is different and, of course, the rooms are too.
Still, that's very close to the settings I use most of the time too.

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poldus



Joined: May 12, 2010
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Location: basque country

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am getting an error message when opening AmbiophonicDSP on Savihost. The window will open up normally and looks operative but after a few seconds the message pops up. I had unistalled both programs from my computer and this is happening since they were reinstalled. Any ideas ?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What is the message?
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poldus



Joined: May 12, 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry, hope this works:


problema.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  problema.pdf
 Filesize:  175.07 KB
 Downloaded:  117 Time(s)


problema.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  problema.pdf
 Filesize:  175.07 KB
 Downloaded:  130 Time(s)

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kraut



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,
yesterday I was able to try the system at more than background music level.

Even at that level the differences between stereo and ambiophonics were discernible, but there are then problems with balance, and the resolution of the sound image does not fulfill all its promised.

At an output level at above 90db however (at the listening position) things change radically. The sound image is other than in stereo mode completely disassociated from the speakers, the instruments, the voices are just there in space, extending in depth and breadth to an extend that in stereo I have never heard.

This leads to a layering of the image that lets you hear instruments really as individual units, the background voices are not mashed together but can be heard as either individual voices or groups that perform different duties.
A good example is Jimmy Vaughn's "Six strings down". The background choir is revealed as actually two groups vocalizing two different rhythm patterns, something I did not hear before.

The clarity of almost any production wins to an extend that going back to stereo would really be a step backwards, not sideways to a different option.

The best 25$ spent on a real improvement in sound reproduction, and thanks for an exquisite component.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

poldus wrote:
I am getting an error message when opening AmbiophonicDSP on Savihost. The window will open up normally and looks operative but after a few seconds the message pops up. I had unistalled both programs from my computer and this is happening since they were reinstalled. Any ideas ?


I have never seen an error message that looks like that. I'm sorry I have no idea what's happening on your computer. Da inlay works on three of my computers - 2 XP and one Vista.

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poldus



Joined: May 12, 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A pretty obscure message it is! Thanks mosc, I´ll try to fix it some way.
However, I think this is a good opportunity to suggest that you guys develop some little stand-alone device-ala MiniAmbio-with your software so we can enjoy the music without a computer and its miriad inconviniencies.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

poldus wrote:
... suggest that you guys develop some little stand-alone device-ala MiniAmbio-with your software so we can enjoy the music without a computer and its miriad inconviniencies.


Yes, that would be good. We're investigating that. Thanks for the suggestion...

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rmiller



Joined: Feb 03, 2003
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Location: Bethlehem PA 18018 USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Kraut - The sound image...is completely disassociated from the speakers; the instruments, the voices are just there in space, extending in depth and breadth to an extend that in stereo I have never heard. This leads to a layering of the image that lets you hear instruments really as individual units, the background voices are not mashed together but can be heard as either individual voices or groups that perform different duties. A good example is Jimmy Vaughn's "Six strings down". The background choir is revealed as actually two groups vocalizing two different rhythm patterns, something I did not hear before...The clarity of almost any production wins to an extend that going back to stereo would really be a step backwards.


Kraut, you have hit upon the essence of ambiophonics and our AmbioDSP plugin. I've used it for years monitoring TV and recording productions because Ambio's wider, enveloping imaging let's you hear "separation" of individual voices (not speaker boxes!), allowing more precise mixing. You and Mosc report needing to change playback settings of the AmbioDSP for different recordings: you are able to catch "errors" that the mixing engineer could not hear, monitoring in ordinary stereo. With AmbioDSP, you can really appreciate well-made recordings - or be justifiably critical of badly made ones!

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DW



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Robin,
My new public domain filters, together with a couple of high quality pre-processed files (for a short time) are here:
http://www.wareing77.plus.com/Filters/
Regards,
David.
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DW



Joined: Jul 23, 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DW wrote:
Hi Robin,
My new public domain filters, together with a couple of high quality pre-processed files (for a short time) are here:
http://www.wareing77.plus.com/Filters/
Regards,
David.


Oh well,
My ISP has suspended my web space due to downloads exceeding my daily bandwidth allowance. I will put the filter back when I sort it out..
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Tsardoz



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just like to add my 2c.

I tried this plugin with Jriver media Center and

1) A minimal parametric EQ
2) A full on DRC FIR EQ.

Speakers are KRK Rokit 6 about 2' away.

It is certainly a worthy inclusion with the PEQ system and broadens the sound stage considerably. If I were using just PEQ for normal listening I'd certainly include this plugin.

However, when I use ambiophonics with DRC the sound is quite horrid. Not only is the volume much lower (maybe 4 dB) it seems to filter out some of the bass. Also the image suffers and seems to be split into 2 speakers.

The biggest improvement I had with DRC was a far superior stereo soundstage. Ambiophonics seems to mimic this to a large degree (but does not work well in conjunction with DRC).

Ambiophonics does not suffer from preringing to the same degree as DRC. One track that really makes preringing stand out is Colomb by Nicolas Jaar. It has a drum machine with very fast attack that just sounds weird on DRC (like a backwards drum). Ambiophonics does not suffer from this in the same way but still makes the drum sound unusual. I think this track does best with no such filtering. This is just one track though out of many.

So in short I'd recommend it for computer music soundstage improvements in systems that did not already include DRC (which is either expensive or hard to set up).

I do not really know much about Ambiophonics. Does this tie in with expectations?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome Tzardoz to electro-music.com

Glad you like the AmbiophonicDSP.

I think you observations make sense.

I personally avoid DRC (digital room compensation) unless it is desperately needed, because I've found it usually does more harm than good. I think you have observed that same thing. Some others will not agree. If you want to use all three, EQ, AmbiophonicDSP and DRC, I would think they would go best in that order. The less you have in your signal path, the better.

As for AmbiophonicDSP reducing the bass in some recordings, I haven't experienced that, but I've seen the mid range reduced or boosted on different recordings. The plugin can change the tonal balance depending on the recording and the settings on the knobs of the plugin. This is a feature, not a deficiency.

Here is what I recommend:
    Set Recursion to 0, then leave it alone.

    Set delay to the appropriate setting for your speaker angle, ie 70 micro seconds and leave it alone.

    Set Zentrum to 0.

    Adjust the Space control by ear for the tonal balance you like for that particular recording. 10 will sometimes accent the mid range or bass.

    Then adjust Zentrum to boost or reduce the center image as needed.

I have found that Space and Zentrum are really the only controls you need to adjust when changing recordings.

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