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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
can you hear saw up & down differences?
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:43 am    Post subject: can you hear saw up & down differences?
Subject description: I do...
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This is something I noticed a while ago, but never so clearly. It must be an psychoacoustic thing.

To me, a simple saw up sounds different than a saw down. By default the G2 has saw up waveforms. When I turn the saw down it sounds like it has a bit more of low end. Of course when I look at the waveform it's just inverted, and there is no visual evidence of emphasized low frequencies, but I trust my ears. I can clearly and blindly hear the difference.

So, maybe is something related to the way my headphones work? or my audio interface? Maybe the ears can really notice the difference? what for?

In any case, I find that the saw down waveform to sound "fuller". Would a Moog synthesizer sound exactly the same if their waveforms were inverted? Curiously it has saw down waveforms.

Please let me know what you think.

I have attached a wave file and a simple patch. Just tweak the polarity knob.


polarity.wav
 Description:
simple sound switching polarity

Download
 Filename:  polarity.wav
 Filesize:  897.83 KB
 Downloaded:  374 Time(s)


amicrazyorwhat.pch2
 Description:
simple patch (with some analoguish tricks)

Download
 Filename:  amicrazyorwhat.pch2
 Filesize:  1.32 KB
 Downloaded:  564 Time(s)


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Last edited by dorremifasol on Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have also noticed this, more so once you start adding filters and such like but I have hunch that has something to do with the way the filter responds to the different waveforms, not sure at all though.
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Roland Kuit



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it is more a psycho-acoustic feel. it is like playing the violin. when playing the thing you touch the string with the bow descended and up. thats the reason for in an orchestra that the note lines are noted with the behavior of the bow. it would be a sonologic mess when the string players could decide for themselves to play up or down. hey, you are up early ross:)
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked

WOW! I didn't know that about the violin, great info Roland! Now I have something new and cool to tell to my neophyte friends Very Happy

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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not especially early, i am usually in work for 8.30 - 9.00. Talking of which I should probably be doing some. Smile
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wouldn't the capacitance inherent in any routing behave differently between, a sudden positive excursion followed by a falling value, and a sudden negative excursion followed by a rising value?
I know, in theory, that capacitive reactance should present the same regardless of polarity. But what if there are polarised caps in the audio path?
Then again, I could be wrong. Just a thought.

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Roland Kuit



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a descending bowing gives a positive vibration, up-a negative. it is easy to make a pch and implement this.it will make things more realistic. i will have a look, but not now/have to do things. basically you are right uncle...and not. payed neg of pos after each other, in sound there is no difference in perspective. but played both at the same time it would.
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not really talking about the perception, more about how a saw wave and it's theoretically identical (and yet inverted) timbre may not make it out of the instrument, through the amp, speakers and into our heads with the same shape. There could be some anomaly in the hardware which modifies the timbre just because it's inverted.

Or not.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: can you hear saw up & down differences?
Subject description: I do...
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dorremifasol wrote:
I have attached a wave file and a simple patch. Just tweak the polarity knob.


I dont know if there are up or downgoing saws in the wav (I didnt view it), or maybe both ... when I hold my breath all the bursts sound the same ... however I notice that I tend to sync my breath to the bursts - in on odd bursts and out on the even ones. Breathing in there seems to be another preception than breathing out Shocked (and next time for better relaxation make the bursts a bit longer please Wink )

This was on laptop speakers ... will repeat it with some others later ... so please don't tell the plot!

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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
...however I notice that I tend to sync my breath to the bursts...


Jan, you can really FEEL the sound, don't you? Smile

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dorremifasol wrote:
Jan, you can really FEEL the sound, don't you? Smile


Yup ... at home now ... on speakers I hear no difference ... on headphones I do Shocked

This should not happen ... Laughing

Now let me look at the patch ...

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, lill modification on the patch ...

Its not a saw of course we listened to , but some block was mixed in as well ... anyway, I've left that and most other things as is and I only changed the manual fade into an automatic one with an LFO ... and I removed the envelope to have it on continuously ... please up the main volume a bit after loading it.

I dont hear the effect anymore ...


amicrazyorwhat_bh.pch2
 Description:
just a test, nothing interesting to download ;-)

Download
 Filename:  amicrazyorwhat_bh.pch2
 Filesize:  1.25 KB
 Downloaded:  661 Time(s)


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Jan
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You don't hear the difference because in that patch you are listening to many different voices, each one with its own LFO and phase.

The effect is only audible if there is only one voice, and one saw.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, didnt look at the voice count, tried it in the demo ... so thats not an issue there.
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xav



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Incredible, what a nice discover! It's evident the filtered saw sound is different, especially in the first octave of a G2 (without noise and sub osc). I'll try to compare the NMG1 (that's in the other sense) or Minimoog paying attention to that point.
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