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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
G2 needs to be more expressive...
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Afro88



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very interesting discussion here. I'm a little late, but I thought I'd add my 2c:

I used my G2 with my K5000 as a controller for quite a while, with it's 16 knobs assigned to certain parameters. I would constantly be switching patches and not really tweaking that much. I would build a patch, assign some filter and envelope parameters and that would be that. The k5k's knobs are actually quite dodgy - they send out changes in massive steps, skipping 2-3 numbers even while turning slowly. Consequently I'd shy away from relying on this interface to tweak parameters and my patch programming suffered. (I hate using a mouse to move knobs, it's so wrong!)

Enter the BCR2000 and everything completely changes. I've mainly been playing around with the same 4 patches for almost a month! The main one I use is just a 2osc, 2filter, 2env, 2lfo synth with a crap load of modulation possibilities. Pretty much all paramters are assigned to the 32 + 24 knobs, along with buttons for osc/lfo shapes and variation changes. I'm still getting fresh new sounds from this patch. The sounds I'm programming have increased in quality quite alot, and I put this down to the interface. Having all parameters assigned lets me make changes to a massive range of parameters on the fly, it's really quite excellent.

Also, the sounds I've been programming recently have been much more experimental. I think this is because I can play around with them so quickly and easily I'm not afraid to hook something up in a strange way, because I can really mess around with parameters and get a feel for how it sounds. I'll mess with modulation of tens of parameters like there's no tomorrow and come out of it with 5-10 nice fx sounds sampled into my mpc. It's really great.

Mosc (and anyone else looking for a better/complimentary interface) - if you can, get your hands on a bcr2000 and try it out with your setup. This thing is really made for the G2. If you like tweaking and tweaking and having 32 parameters (+ buttons) right in front of you dying to be played with, you won't be let down.

I really hope they include automatic sending of controller values when variations/patches change - that would make this setup perfect Smile
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Hyde



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think Mosc has a point in that the G2 sounds alot more 'polished'. I am not as smart as you guys in regards to constructing patches so I am glad I still have my Micro around and the 38,000 patches for it. Of those - I singled out about 180 that were of interest to what I do and I use only 80 of those on a regular basis. Patches that would truly melt your brain. They are RAW and SICK and I've yet to hear or make patches in my G2X that are comparable. I'm hopeful that it CAN and guessing that it SHOULD. No one seems to be making the experimental patches that push the envelope the way they did with the first round of synths that Clavia gave us. Back then people were submitting patches by the hundreds it seemed and now they are scarce. I have the G2X Engine so I can't speak for the keyboard aspects of the new machines. Hopefully they will come out with some modules that are comparable the the MIA ones from the G1 line... Either that or maybe I can bash my G2X with a hammer a few times to make it sound more gross. In the meantime, I will keep trying new things and using SoundHack when I am at wits end.

Hyde / Noiseician


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cebec



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Again, what do you/or even I mean by 'raw' and 'sick' and could you provide specific examples of G1/Classic patches and descriptions of these sounds you've yet to reproduce on the G2.

Obviously I'm more from the camp that: anything possible on the G1 is possible or will be possible on the G2, notwithstanding other sound quality issues due to the input and output stages...

With that in mind, and with the same experiences recently as Afrokid -- I, too, have been really enjoying the BCR2000/G2 combination for it's instrumental extension of the G2s improvisatory and interactive dimensions! -- I feel compelled to design some of these patches or at least elicit further descriptions of the characteristics of these sounds from you and others so that anyone else could make an attempt if they wished or learn from these attempts in order to satisfy their own ends...
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egw



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nice setup!
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Arfrokid's comments are right on. I've got the BCR2000 on order - It sould come in a day or two. The concept of one patch like that is just what I used on the G1. Properly designed, it can have nealry infinite variety, from simple melodic voices to while broadband choas machines. Having a lot of knobs makes it expressive to play.

I never thought that the G2 couldn't make wild and crazy sounds compared to the G1. It's just that 18 knobs was more expressive than 8.

Why aren't there zillions of patches of the G2 as compared to the G1. Well, I'm not sure but I think one reason is because with the G2's variations feature, a single patch is much more flexible. You don't need so many patches. Secondly, the performances are even more flexible. For examples, with a patch like Afrokid described, you might not need too much more.

The G2 allows you to really design your own synth. Once you design your own and it has a suitably flexible modulation matrix, you don't need a lot of other stuff. Like I said when I started this topic, I used to pley one or two G1 patches all night.

MORE KNOBS means more expressive, more powerful.

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Hyde



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks EGW Smile Cebec - I would be happy to zip up my fav patches for you. Maybe you could take a look at them and see what I am talking about...
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cebec



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi, yeah, go ahead and zip them and post them. i think that should be ok... that way me or anyone else can take a crack at converting them or examining them
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deknow



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i first got the behringer foot controller to run the engine. at the suggestion of a fellow synthesist in the area, i got the behringer slider box...i use that instead (the knob box looks sweet with all the controls...but the sliders have _motors_ ....you can use them as an oscilliscope for lfo's).

my current "live" setup is flute through the nord into the repeater, buchla thunder controlling another slot in the nord and some functions on the repeater, and behringer slider box controlling the whole "mixer slot" and patch settings in the nord.

the 8 buttons (the ones activated by pressing the 8 knobs at the top row) access the patch variations, the 8 knobs control the morph groups (one is controlled by a foot controller as well). i can reach up and change obvious things like delay feedback/mix, filter cutoff, etc even if i'm playing flute. the 2 rows of buttons access patches for the 2 slots that are "playing", and the sliders control things in the "mixer slot". this all happens on one page of the slider box. ...between all that, looping the nordulated flute on the repeater, and wanking on the thunder, i don't get board, have plenty of control, and i can make a hell of a noise!

deknow
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On another topic, http://electro-music.com/forum/post-29823.html , Shoshin said:
Quote:
So, to add to Howards post about the G2 needing to be more expressive: I think it is incredibly expressive! The greatest thing, to me, is the marriage between the complexity of modularity and the simplicity of assigning performance controls to this complexity. Just hit the morph buttons and dial away.

Maybe using morph groups effectively would minimize the need for lots of knobs. I don't use them all that much. I think that it's worth reconsidering and start using them more.

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Unfed



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes, the morph groups are an amazing feature of the Nord Mod line. especially when teamed w/ the BCR-2000, i would imagine...
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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rob wrote:
3phase wrote:
I would love to have the original Spectral Osc back.
I will do some more tests.


The spectral osc morphs between a sine wave and a tangential wave. On the NM1 the tangens is actually hitting the headroom, on the G2 it is not allowed to go that far.

Attached is a little patch that show a trick to regain that NM1 spectral osc snappy energy that got lost on the G2 shape osc.


Nice patch... It actually shows pretty well what is missing in the shape oscs..the might be good for general use but have defenetly less character than the old spectral osc... I think this is a mistake because when it needs to much modules to get such sounds nobody will find the way ..
I checked a bit deeper in patch conversion ...and there are really a lot of little differences that lead into a situation where you cant really convert patches one by one in most cases..
The overdrive module is a total different animal than on the NM for example
I havent found a way to simulate that yet...especially the ways the old overdrive module was reacting to fm on the overdrive amount input...
I hope future modules will focus on things that can create stranger sounds.. But beside having the old spec osc and dist module back...what can this be?
Any ideas?
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smackos



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Regarding the overal idea that the G2 sounds more polished and the NM1

I dunno

In my opinion...

It sounds a lot rawer, more organic, more juicy and less static the NM1, you just might need another angle to program the sounds or something.
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cebec



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i think i already weighed in on this, but smackos' response moved me to publicly agree with his sentiments! and not only juicy, but slippery or throbbing, too.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My original point was not that the G2 sound wasn't good. I firmly believe the sound is the result of the patcher. The thing just needs more knobs. Very Happy
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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
My original point was not that the G2 sound wasn't good. I firmly believe the sound is the result of the patcher. The thing just needs more knobs. Very Happy


I know.. You can patch a lot.. you even can simulate the spectral oscilator.. But when you modulate the simulated one it sounds rougher on the G2
The sounds i come along with the G2 are from a different quality than the ones i get out of the NM1... The G2 can do sweeter sounds.. nhe new noise osc´s can do nice atmospheric things...
But i have problems to get the roaring sounds of it i love so much on the NM1.
I miss a bit the shimmering details..especially on harder sounds the G2 sounds a bit flat, more agressiv up in your face...
Some might consider this better.. but in the mix more detail is allways more separation...
check this 2 patches...
The G2 version is tuned to sound allmost identical to the NM1 version... you need a few extra modules on the G2.

When you compare them one by one... which one sounds better ?


fuzzMet EngnG2.pch2
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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and here the Nm1 version


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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I gave away my NM1 keyboard the day my G2 arrived so I can't listen to your .pch file. Seems like from the G2 patch that you are using a lot of distortion with the saturation module. It seems that there is a lot of room for adjustment just with that one module.

Anyhow, this one sounds pretty much "in your face" as it is.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

smackos wrote:
Regarding the overal idea that the G2 sounds more polished and the NM1....

...It sounds a lot rawer, more organic, more juicy and less static the NM1, you just might need another angle to program the sounds or something.


I'm not realy sure about the "rawness", it's indeed less static but I also find it a bit too polished and extroverted. The G1 seems more intimate to me and the emphasis the G2 places on the high end makes it sound a bit dishonest on harder types of sound if you're not very carefull and use the standard oscilators and filters.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I firmly believe the sound is the result of the patcher.


I agree, but only on a theoretical level. I think very, very few people have the skills, the knowledge and the experience with modular synthesis to be able to make the G2 sound exactly like they want to (unless of cource you like trance leads). I freely admit I don't; I always need outboard effects and even then there will be a certain emtyness to it that drifts to the surface after a few days. May be just my ear.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I gave away my NM1 keyboard the day my G2 arrived so I can't listen to your .pch file. Seems like from the G2 patch that you are using a lot of distortion with the saturation module. It seems that there is a lot of room for adjustment just with that one module.

Anyhow, this one sounds pretty much "in your face" as it is.


The NM1 version is a bit softer..sounds like 1 meter behind the G2 version..a bit more wodden... Actually a blend of booth sounds brilliant...
I however wasnt able to get the G2 less present... I wonder if this is connected to the high frequencie issue discussed inanother thread.
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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

smackos wrote:
It sounds a lot rawer, more organic, more juicy and less static the NM1, you just might need another angle to program the sounds or something.


Maybe...but with the actual set and tuning of the modules it defenetly is a different sound to the NM1 sound...and i miss that .. I really felt in love to a certain scool of chrunchy sounds... The G2 can make similar things but because it sounds a bit more polished and controled this type of sounds is not so expressiv snorkeling like the the ones you get out of the NM
Maybe i need some new tricks? I needed sometime with the NM to make it sound wright for me...maybe the G2 is still to young for me...But what i defenetly can say that the tricks that made a NM interesting are on the G2 rather a negativ influence... And i have a G2 now for exactly one year... So... I am late in learning the new tricks.
The NM sounds from the plain modules in a simple synth structure a bit flat in comparison to the G2..
The G2 sounds on the easy structures warmer and richer.
But on wild FM stuff the G2 is behaving rather kind while the Nm1 tend to explode in certain settings...
especially with the gorgeous spectral oscilator involved..
It seems to get smoother and overtone richer in certain states.
I think the earlier statement in this thread that the G2 sounds more polished hits the point pretty much... This is good for a wide range of standard keyboardsounds but not too beneficial when you are after crunchy unpolished aliasing monsters.. When the G2 starts sounding rough its hard to ride it on that edge without getting it into hissy clouds.
Higher resolution is not allways a good thing.. You see this when comparing an Akai S900 sampler to a S3000 xl... The older brother shakes the walls... 12 rough bits against a highly polished 16 bit version.
Thanks god the G2 makes a better figure in a direct comparison to the older soundengine Wink, The difference is more subtile, but there.

After having the G2 for one year now I maybe have to accept that only the NM sounds like the NM while the G2 sounds like the G2...
I just wonder that 2 machines that are from the software and hardware so close can be so different... And i ask myself if clavia maybe overoptimized certain algorythms a bit. Sometimes its the little mistakes that make us fall in love and that are creating a special character.
Maybe some future modules can bring an additional colour to the G2 that helps me getting over the one i lost ... I would prefer that over working with 2 editors.
I would like modules that help to create rougher timbres without eating you an ear off. Or smoother modules that shape the spectral contour in ways master Hordik is reffering about from time to time...
This might help to get things in shape.
The new Oscilators of the G2 are for me the most beneficial enhancement over the NM1 ( exept from the performance functions of cause). But this new oscilators adress the DX soundworld, atmospheric stuff and cymbal simulation... very good...But ...
One more for the evil bass/Seq world, please...
The Supersonic Extraspectral Osc V2 Smile

I just repaired a Memory Moog...wow... My poor subwoofer..why this moog synths sound so heavy? Can we patch this? And if not..why?
Are this all psycho acoustic phenomens? Can there be a moog me up module?
The plane oscilators of the moog sound good but not special..same with the filter...as soon you switch on the modulation matrix the walls come down...

Master Hordik... what is going on in the moog? Wink
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't recall the sampling rates between the two NM generations, but I remember the G2 was higher, so we could expect less aliasing. Maybe that's what you miss - aliasing distortion. If you still have a G1, then you're all set. Use the G1 when you want that sound, and use the G2 for whatever it's good for.

I know many acoustic guitar players that have many guitars. Some even have Martin guitars that are exactly the same, but made in different decades. They like the triple 0 models made in the 1940s for one type of music, and the ones made in the 60s for another type. But, most great players I know aren't obsessed with the guitars, they just get one they like and play it. They are musicians, not guitar collectorsL Look at Willie Nelson.

I think it's an unavoidable fact that there are going to be subtile differences in these instruments. The same for Moog Modulars. There was a second generation of oscillators made after they had been on the market for about 3 years. The 901s were replaced by the 901As. The new ones were more stable and tracked more accurately. There was a sound difference too - subtile to be sure. Some want the drifting oscillator sound. Not me. If I want the oscillators to sound that way, I'll patch in some modulation.

This converstion is getting me a little frustrated. I like the Nord Modulars because they let me invent new sounds. I don't want to replicate the sound of a Memory Moog or a G1 - I want a sound nobody has heard before.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
If you still have a G1, then you're all set. Use the G1 when you want that sound, and use the G2 for whatever it's good for.


Sad They stole my NM1 in a studio robbery..and i started missing it by now...because you are wright... The easiest solution is to use the NM1 for what its good for and the G2 for the other things... The G2 is a great controler for the old Nms...you can create patches that load the associated one in the Nm1 and have knobs with name than...with the midiremotemodule the G2 shows you the actual setting of the Nm1 knobs..perfect..but...there are no more Nm1 anymore...
look on ebay..they are getting rare !

I however still see the G2 in a developping state.. its all about software..
Maybe clavia can bring back what gots lost during the ways of time and technical advancement... It would be good for them. And for me Wink
People like me that are on the stranger kind of sounds represent in germany and europe probably the biggest buyer potential.
Techo House,drum and Base, trip and Hip hop are big here.. And you need sounds that people can identifie within 100 ms when you go for a club hit.
I think when clavia wants to give the G2 a wilder soundrange they can do.
It´s´just the question if they see a demand. I hope they do..It would help to establish the G2 in the european electronic music scene and create a better user libary that has more characterfull hook sounds in it..
And that are the sounds people that dont patch themself buy a synth for.
There 10000 romplers for the strings and standard square/saw seq sounds. As more special the sound libary as better for the market position of a real synth like the G2.
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cebec



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this site may or may not be common knowledge for some but as I've been browsing through several of ian sayer/g2ian's and Rob's patches, several of them are considerably crunchy, raw, and aggressive with a little tweaking. look out for anything with chaos in it's name, for one!

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhordijk/G2Patches/
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would not say no to more knobs but I think my preference would be for more controllers. Knobs, specially the ones on the current G2 key, are not my first choice for controlling synthesisers. I like ribbon controllers (and XY touch pads) even less but I may look into retrofitting a nice little EMS style joystick or three.

Regarding Sven’s observations about the difference in sound. I think doubling the sample rate and the new anti-aliasing algorithm are probably to blame. But I do seem to recall an awful lot of complaining about the classic sounding “buzzy” so you can’t blame Clavia for making these improvements.
Sven has a good point about needing those familiar sounds for club hits though, if you start throwing in unique and interesting sounds, clubbers might stop dancing, (and listen?). Nothing worse in a dance club.
A NM1 rompler? Now there's an idea, no need for an editor and just two knobs, distortion and filter frequency.
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