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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » General Discussion
Yamaha DX7 Battery replacement issue
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Gothboy



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Yamaha DX7 Battery replacement issue Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just got a Yamaha DX7 from a guy who was literally on his way to the dump with it. The keyboard powered up but wouldn't play sounds normally just little garbled squeaks and noises. The battery check showed 2.3 and he said he was the original owner and had never changed it and that the DX had been in his closet for quite some time. It came with 2 DX7 voice ROM cartridges(3 Master group, Keyboard and plucked group and 4 Orchestral and percussive, Complex and effects group.) a Data RAM cartridge a Chismark Fourplay cartridge(Reads invalid format when inserted) and a Red Planet Instruments SR512 that goes in the cart slot though I have no idea what this does). It also came with a nice Yamaha sustain pedal(piano type) so pretty good score. I took it home and gave it a once over. It is clean on the inside and everything is operational except the internal sounds wouldn't play. After doing some research I concluded the battery needed to be replaced so I ordered one from Yamaha. I'm pretty good with a soldering gun and after taking apart and fixing my Roland D-50 was ready to do the fix. I replaced the battery with + and - placement correct and put the whole thing back together in no time. See photo attachment.

Howeverrrrrr. 8O Confused

I turned the DX7 on and it displayed "Memory Protect- Change Battery!" Ummm well I DID change the battery so why is it telling me to? Laughing Rolling Eyes then going to the internal bank it still had the same problem with the internal voices with wrong patch names displayed next to say INIT 3 so at this point I'm thinking patch corruption. I turned memory protect off then used a ROM card and loaded it into the internal bank. The sounds were there but I had to reprogram patch characters like the pitch and mod wheel so they would sound right finally getting all the sounds correct. I turned memory protect back on but found that if I unplug or leave it off overnight the sounds are lost and I have to do all that again. Checking the battery it sometimes shows different readings(which I've heard is common with DX7s) even as low as 0.8 and as high as 4.2.

So now I'm thinking either Yamaha sent me a bad battery or it's something else entirely? Does the positive tab on the battery have to be folded over onto the motherboard like the original one was to make a suitable connection?

Also making my life more difficult is that for some reason my voltmeter all of a sudden just doesn't work.

Any help would be great. I've read though some of the posts here and it's given me a good understanding this issue but since I've replaced the battery with a new one it should hold sounds and settings in memory....and it's baffling me.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

did you check out this site where you can also find out how to run diagnostics, reset to factory settings etc.

Might be the battery is shorting?

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Gothboy



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That site is in regards to the DX7s which has a different procedure to restore settings. What I have is the original DX7.

I can't think of why it would be shorting. Do you think I should do a re-solder?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK. Well on the possible short, apparently there are a lot of traces in that area, so just look. I don't know a lot about the insides of DX7s, I don't own one, just played one a long time ago. But frequently a battery replacement, especially when the battery goes dead (or you don't parallel the new one) results in problems. Sometimes, a soft init, if available, helps. Other times a factory reset fixes it (hope there was a backup). DX7s certainly have both soft and hard resets, although some of the procedures sound scary.

Not having an accurate voltmeter is also unfortunate. Even a cheap one would be good so long as it can measure DC.

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Gothboy



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just took a DC reading and the battery checks out as being good. The battery has a + and - post and they simply fit into 2 tiny holes on the motherboard and then soldered so that it stays put but the battery that I removed had the + tab folded over onto the MB...which I didn't do for fear of breaking the post...I just soldered it in place thinking this was all that's needed. So now I'm wondering if it was something I did wrong.

From what I understand the factory reset with a DX7 is either reloading the factory settings from the data cart(I don't have that one) or by sysex...but I'm still not exactly sure.

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pdman1



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You should get a coin cell holder and install it in the DX7. Then you can use a regular CR2032 battery available everywhere instead of the one with the solder tabs. Also when it does need replacing just slip it out and install a new one.
Another option is get a AA battery holder(radio shack sells them) and solder the wires to the battery pcb pads. Use a wall mount or equivalent and mount the holder somewhere inside the DX7. then purchase a 3.6 VDC lithium AA sized battery from Batteries plus or any other parts distributor. Again it makes it easy to replace a battery.
Or you could order a 2/3 size battery holder and use a Panasonic BR 2/3 battery. only difference is the size and current capacity.

I have done these repairs to many synths.
I just finished an OB8 where I installed a 2/3 battery holder with solder tags where the battery is supposed to go. Then I slip in the BR2/3 in and secure with a zip tie.
There are even battery holders with a clip on ring or cover to secure the battery.

I do this on all my repairs and it makes the customer happy knowing he can replace his own battery with minimum hassle and no need to take it to a shop.

Also make sure your isolation diode is OK. It could be leaky . They are cheap enough to replace, just to be on the safe side.
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Gothboy



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey thanks for the reply....the Battery was purchased from Yamaha and it comes in the holder. It is the one specifically for the DX7. We're all set on that.

The problem is I've twice soldered the Battery and I still keep getting a "Change Battery!" alert in the display each time as if there was no battery.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

make sure your isolation diode is OK. It could be leaky . They are cheap enough to replace, just to be on the safe side.
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pdman1



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

go here and look at the circuit diagram(schematics)
http://homepages.abdn.ac.uk/mth192/pages/html/dx7.html

go to page 3
Here you will see the battery and D4.
With power OFF measure from the D4 anode to ground.
You should get the full battery voltage. (~ 3VDC)

Now measure from the D4 cathode to Gnd. You should get a voltage drop of .5 to .7 volts DC (2.3 to 2.6 VDC)

Next measure from IC19 pin 24 to Gnd. Voltage should be the same as D4 cathode to Gnd.

Next measure from IC20 pin 24 to Gnd. Voltage should be the same as D4 cathode to Gnd.

Next measure from IC21 pin 24 to Gnd. Voltage should be the same as D4 cathode to Gnd.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm looking at the schematic diagram...I see the RAM chips but I don't see the battery or the D4 which page of the schematic is it on?

Should I check voltage with the board in place and the unit plugged in?

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pdman1



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gothboy wrote:
I'm looking at the schematic diagram...I see the RAM chips but I don't see the battery or the D4 which page of the schematic is it on?

Should I check voltage with the board in place and the unit plugged in?


In the pdf file my viewer shows it at page 3.
The battery, D4, IC19, 20 and 21 are clearly marked.

NO, you do not want power on. Yes the PCB should be in place.
What you are doing is checking to see that the battery is providing the Voltage needed by Memory to hold the info.

Last edited by pdman1 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[/img]


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Gothboy



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pdman1 wrote:
go here and look at the circuit diagram(schematics)
http://homepages.abdn.ac.uk/mth192/pages/html/dx7.html

go to page 3
Here you will see the battery and D4.


Thanks for the closer view I can see the little D4 cathode tube and the RAM chips.


pdman1 wrote:
power OFF measure from the D4 anode to ground.
You should get the full battery voltage. (~ 3VDC)


This checks out and the voltage is ~ 3VDC from the pin that comes out of the top of D4 that connects to the board.


pdman1 wrote:
measure from the D4 cathode to Gnd. You should get a voltage drop of .5 to .7 volts DC (2.3 to 2.6 VDC)


Here I'm not sure where to measure voltage and just what is the cathode and diode. I tried under and directly on the tube and ground and get a small fluxuating reading of -1 to +1.

pdman1 wrote:
measure from IC19 pin 24 to Gnd. Voltage should be the same as D4 cathode to Gnd.


I'm getting voltage of 3.04 on all 3 of these. Maybe I'm not doing this right?

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pdman1



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"This checks out and the voltage is ~ 3VDC from the pin that comes out of the top of D4 that connects to the board. "

Measure from one side of D4 to ground. If you can make sure it is the Anode side. You should get ~ 3 VDC.

Next measure the other side of D4 , the cathode, identified usually by a black or colored band on one end. This measurement should be about 2.3 to 2.5 VDC.

The measurements one each side of D4 should NOT be the same. You need to see a voltage drop.

>>>>>>measure from IC19 pin 24 to Gnd. Voltage should be the same as D4 cathode to Gnd.
I'm getting voltage of 3.04 on all 3 of these. Maybe I'm not doing this right?<<<<<<

You should not be reading 3 VDC here . You should read a voltage drop of at least 1/2 VDC, so you should see around 2.5 VDC here. From your measurements, it looks like D4 is shorted. You can check this with an Ohmmeter.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pdman1 wrote:

Measure from one side of D4 to ground. If you can make sure it is the Anode side. You should get ~ 3 VDC.


I'm guessing the anode side is the metal pin that juts out of the top of D4. This is where I get ~ 3 VDC.

pdman1 wrote:
Next measure the other side of D4 , the cathode, identified usually by a black or colored band on one end. This measurement should be about 2.3 to 2.5 VDC.


It's a small tube with a blue colored band. Here I'm getting
~ 3 VDC at the very base of D4 if I'm measuring it right. The thing is so tiny.

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grantb3



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm in the same boat right now. Just replaced a bad battery and (good) diode. I actually built up a little board with a battery holder and schottky diode on it (couldn't find a germanium). So now the voltages work, but half of the sounds are scrambled.

The synth used to have a Grey Matter E! in it, and it's getting an E!-ectomy, so one of the original SRAMs (Mitsubishi M5M5118P-15L) was missing. I substituted every 6116 part I could find with no joy. I did notice if I swapped the 5118 with the 6116 that the bad voices moved, so I'm pretty sure it's one of the (socketed) SRAMs. For some reason 6116 doesn't work so I'm trying to locate the original. There must be some difference so I will look at the data sheets later today.

By the way, v1.7 of the DX7 EPROM/OS has the RAM test on it. Not terribly useful though as it detects an empty socket, but a 6116 passes though it doesn't actually work. v1.8 and SER don't have the SRAM test.

I'm guessing the 5118 is odd in the same way that the 2532 is odd as EPROMs go. More investigation is required...
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pdman1



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gothboy

it looks like your diode is shorted. Did you measure ohms across it?

You need to see a voltage drop across the diode. You are not getting it.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pdman1 wrote:
You need to see a voltage drop across the diode.


When the synth is not powered .. otherwise it could be a voltage rise too.

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Gothboy



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pdman1 wrote:
Gothboy

it looks like your diode is shorted. Did you measure ohms across it?


Well I hear you. What I don't get is if that is true why was I not getting the "Replace Battery!" error until I put the new battery in? With the old Battery measuring 2.3V I didn't get this error in the display. The D4 cathode looks fine to me...if it's shorted does it change in color or turn black or something?

Is the D4 replaceable?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gb

do you have a meter?
Can you measure ohms?

With power off measure for ohms across D4 to see if it is shorted. Alternately you could use the diode check function on a DMM as well.

No, the band does not change color or anything like that.
If you are unsure on how to use a meter or make measurements, use google to find a tutorial.
Also you could use a Friend or someone that has some experience to help you out. Where are you located?

Yes D4 can be replaced.
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pdman1



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gothboy wrote:
pdman1 wrote:
Gothboy

it looks like your diode is shorted. Did you measure ohms across it?


Well I hear you. What I don't get is if that is true why was I not getting the "Replace Battery!" error until I put the new battery in? With the old Battery measuring 2.3V I didn't get this error in the display. The D4 cathode looks fine to me...if it's shorted does it change in color or turn black or something?

Is the D4 replaceable?


Not sure why your getting the error other than somehow something is shorted or open caused by the repair. Is the PCB double side? Maybe a via (feed through) was damaged when the battery was unsoldered.
How did you unsolder it? With wick, solder sucker, vacuum solder station, etc?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pdman1 wrote:
Not sure why your getting the error other than somehow something is shorted or open caused by the repair. Is the PCB double side? Maybe a via (feed through) was damaged when the battery was unsoldered.
How did you unsolder it? With wick, solder sucker, vacuum solder station, etc?


I used a soldering gun(Not the 40V heavy kind it's a 20V as specified for the DX7 MB. They say not to use a 40V as it can cause damage) to heat up the present solder then I pulled the battery out. The second time I used a solder sucker to remove extra solder and folded the + pin of the battery over the MB and used solder to make sure there was a good connection there.

What is the PCB?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gothboy wrote:
pdman1 wrote:
Not sure why your getting the error other than somehow something is shorted or open caused by the repair. Is the PCB double side? Maybe a via (feed through) was damaged when the battery was unsoldered.
How did you unsolder it? With wick, solder sucker, vacuum solder station, etc?


I used a soldering gun(Not the 40V heavy kind it's a 20V as specified for the DX7 MB. They say not to use a 40V as it can cause damage) to heat up the present solder then I pulled the battery out. The second time I used a solder sucker to remove extra solder and folded the + pin of the battery over the MB and used solder to make sure there was a good connection there.

What is the PCB?


PCB = Printed Circuit Board.
Do you have a meter?
Pleases let me know. It is hard to help if the questions aren't answered.

We can get to the bottom of this and get it fixed.
Where in NE are you located. I am on the Northshore, NE of Boston.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pdman1 wrote:
PCB = Printed Circuit Board.

So in other words Motherboard

pdman1 wrote:
Do you have a meter?

Yes I have 2 a small yellow GE one and a borrowed larger Digital multimeter.

pdman1 wrote:
Where in NE are you located. I am on the Northshore, NE of Boston.


Central Ma. a bit west of Worcester. I have taken keyboard stuff to HiTech up in Lawrence and they do a good job but I'm really trying to avoid that this time if possible. I really appreciate the help. Smile

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK with your meter set to the lowest ohm scale measure across D4 with the power Off.
What do you get for a resistance ?
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