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vintage
Joined: Mar 21, 2005 Posts: 8 Location: spain
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:12 am Post subject:
Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab |
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Hi!
Is there a Ring Modulator circuit that fits the Sound Lab as well as the Sample & Hold do?
Thanks! |
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seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:45 am Post subject:
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Hi vintage
welcome to electro-music.com I can't answer your question, I hope someone else will _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
Last edited by seraph on Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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adhdboy
Joined: Feb 16, 2005 Posts: 57 Location: denver
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:03 pm Post subject:
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Hi
Sorry but there is not currently a ring modulator. But I have some AD633 chips waiting in the wings for when I have a spare moment to get one going. Check out the AD633 and maybe you'll get some ideas.
Cheers
ADHDBOY _________________ There 10 kinds of people in this world that understand binary those that do and those that don't. |
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Photon
Joined: Mar 22, 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Boston
Audio files: 1
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vintage
Joined: Mar 21, 2005 Posts: 8 Location: spain
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adrianopy2qa
Joined: Feb 18, 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:30 am Post subject:
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Hi Adhdboy, Photon, Seraph and Vintage
I have a RM schematic photocopies (3 pages) using the MC1496 along with the pcb. I'll have to scan it and send to you via email if you want.
Regards _________________ VCO, VCA, VCF, SLFO, LFO, ADSR, CV... |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18198 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 213
G2 patch files: 60
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:46 am Post subject:
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adrianopy2qa
You can post images here as attachments. Please try to reduce them in size as much as possible while still readable.
I've built a lot of ring modulator circuits. The big difficulty with these is balancing them. The AD chips with laser trimming have a huge advantage in this department. You don't need to add trim pots and they never go out of adjustment. They are a bit more expensive, but in my opinion, worth the expense. _________________ --Howard
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adrianopy2qa
Joined: Feb 18, 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:41 am Post subject:
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Hi Mosc,
I've never built a RM before, I didn't know about this tricky adjustments. I want to build this particulary RM with the MC1496 and use it with the Sound Lab and the WP-20 outputs. I'm not very familiar with RM theory, but reading the article from the schematics you can like "mix and modulate" 2 diferents sources in my case the Sound Lab with the WP-20 and get a different sound. I'll scan the schematics and follow your instructions to attach the files otherwise I'll be glad to send via email the images to you if you don't mind. The schematics are from a old electronic magazine called Elektor I think.
Rgds
Adriano _________________ VCO, VCA, VCF, SLFO, LFO, ADSR, CV... |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18198 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 213
G2 patch files: 60
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:58 am Post subject:
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If you look at Vintage's post just up in this topic you'll find a link to the VCS3 schematics that use the MC1496.
On second thought, you shouldn't post schematics here that are of copyrighted circuits.
If you look at the VCS3 Ring Mod schematics, you'll see two trim pots (100K) under the diff pair. That's what you don't have in a AD chip circuit.
There are lots of articles about ring modulation on the net. Here's just one:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Articles/Ring_Modulation/ _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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vintage
Joined: Mar 21, 2005 Posts: 8 Location: spain
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:32 am Post subject:
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I'm thinking on configuring the ring modulator like this:
- Main wave, VCO2
- Mixed with: VCO1 or LFO (switch to choose)
OUTPUT:
- IN of the Filter.
Any suggestions? |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:00 am Post subject:
Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab |
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vintage wrote: | Hi!
Is there a Ring Modulator circuit that fits the Sound Lab as well as the Sample & Hold do?
Thanks! |
Hi I'm new here- I've just totally fallen in love with the MicroSynth (ending a 30-year old lust with the EMS vcs3- there's no way I'm paying £2k++ for not a lot of electronics) so here's my first contribution to this list. I know this threads a bit old (6 weeks?) but I was hunting around on the net the other day for a really cheap ringmodulator (ala MS20/ Arp Odyssey) found this (and therefore should share the link around!);
http://www.analog-synth.de/synths/ringmod/digital_ringmodulator.htm
It's the circuit at the bottom of the page that really floats my boat- check out the mp3's as well- NICE! It will take all the VCO/LFO signals and best of all the current drain sould be minimal (unlike the MC1496?).
I haven't ordered a Minisynth board yet, but when I do I'm gonna do this mod as soon as it gets pieced together. If anyone beats me to it, please do post me the results!!
Tom :-) (Formerly known as 'terryfunken' on the code404/nordmodular list- for all those who may have known? :))) |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24083 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:08 am Post subject:
Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab |
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v-un-v wrote: |
Tom :-) (Formerly known as 'terryfunken' on the code404/nordmodular list- for all those who may have known? :))) |
Hey Tom, welcome at EM, good to see you here !
jan. |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18198 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 213
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject:
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These digital ring modulators are fun and make nice noises, but they aren't really ring modulators. The AD633 is a much better choice for the classic ring modulator.
I'm not arguing one way or the other, but I just want to make sure people don't think that you can hook up some logic gates and get an analog multiplier circuit. _________________ --Howard
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:58 am Post subject:
Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab |
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Blue Hell wrote: | v-un-v wrote: |
Tom :-) (Formerly known as 'terryfunken' on the code404/nordmodular list- for all those who may have known? :))) |
Hey Tom, welcome at EM, good to see you here !
jan. |
JAN!!! Now I feel I'm at home :))) I'll never (at this rate anyway) be able to afford a G2 but the prophet Ray Wilson has helped me see the light again ;)
The Analog Devices RM looks good too. I just like things that sound really dirty (I was gonna say shit but that would play down how good the Sound-Lab sounds like) and I like the MS20 ring mod a lot too- more 'colourful' (imo) than a 'proper' ring mod.
I noticed that the supplied pdf shows the rails to the chip at 15volts. Would it behave itself at 9v?
Jan, did you use my NM patches at the conference in the end? You know you are always welcome to use them. Things have been really frantic over here recently- hence not getting back sooner.
Tom :-) |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24083 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:31 am Post subject:
Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab |
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v-un-v wrote: |
JAN!!! Now I feel I'm at home :))) I |
:-)
Quote: |
Jan, did you use my NM patches at the conference in the end? You know you are always welcome to use them. |
Ok, OT here a bit ... no, not in the noodle radio (that's all self made patches, although I borrowed some ideas) but in a text I wrote for the person to hold a talk about noodles I included some. Whether they will be used I don't know, but I love some of those Kling Klang patches you made & wanted to push 'm a bit.
Jan. |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18198 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 213
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 9:31 am Post subject:
Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab |
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v-un-v wrote: |
I noticed that the supplied pdf shows the rails to the chip at 15volts. Would it behave itself at 9v? |
It would probably work, but someone should try it.
If you love grungy sounds, the digital circuit will be delightful.
Please let us hear some of the results, no matter what direction you choose to follow. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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dnny
Joined: Mar 12, 2005 Posts: 519 Location: Helsinki, Finland
Audio files: 8
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject:
super simple ring modulator |
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Hi all there is one RM circuit from Aaron Cram
its analog and uses LM13700 (transconductance Amp) + 3 op amps , 8 resistors and 2 pots - thats all! so it´s really super simple
i havent try it yet but, you cant lose anything by breadboarding this
http://www.ori.org/~aaronc/synth/
and scroll down for ring modulator
daniel |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18198 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 213
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 9:33 am Post subject:
Re: super simple ring modulator |
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dnny wrote: | Hi all there is one RM circuit from Aaron Cram |
That one will work two. It's cheaper than the 633 circuit that was suggested by Photon: http://m.bareille.free.fr/modular1/warp633/warp633.htm
The 633 has the distinct advantage of being laser-trimmed. The LM13700 has a trim pot. Neither circuit is very expensive or complex, so I'd suggest going for the one without the trim pot; the 633. Sometimes, the sound of an oscillator leaking through ruins everything. _________________ --Howard
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Macaba
Joined: Jul 13, 2005 Posts: 160 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:42 am Post subject:
Re: super simple ring modulator |
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dnny wrote: | Hi all there is one RM circuit from Aaron Cram
its analog and uses LM13700 (transconductance Amp) + 3 op amps , 8 resistors and 2 pots - thats all! so it´s really super simple
i havent try it yet but, you cant lose anything by breadboarding this
http://www.ori.org/~aaronc/synth/
and scroll down for ring modulator
daniel |
Just to let you guys know, i've stripboarded this ring modulator, and it works absolutely fine. Mosc was totally correct about the osc leaking through, its very slight. As for the sound, i've no idea what a proper ring modulator is supposed to sound like, but this sounds groovy. |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18198 Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 213
G2 patch files: 60
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:06 am Post subject:
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Good to hear you built it and it sounds groovy. I'm sure it is pretty close to "proper". For musical purposes, there is no "proper". If you think it's groovy, then that's all that's important.
But, just for completeness, a ring modulator is technically a multiplier, sometimes called a balanced modulator. Here is what one expects from a good mulitplier circuit.
1) when a signal is plugged in to one input and the other one is grounded, there is no output (leakage).
2) when two sine wave oscillators are plugged into the different inputs, the output will also have two sine waves, the sum and difference frequencies. Example, IN1= 400Hz, IN2 = 100Hz, then OUT is a mix of 500 Hz and 300 Hz. If the inputs are pure sine waves, that is all you should hear.
Of course, when you use two signals with many harmonics it is too difficult to predict the output exactly because this sum and difference effect happens between every harmonic in both inputs.
Anyhow, that may be of interest, but for musical purposes sometimes a bad multiplier is better than a "proper" one. _________________ --Howard
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SuperKoopa
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 70 Location: Italy
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:23 am Post subject:
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Just some math!
the output of a ring modulator is:
Out=(X*Y)*k+m
X and Y are periodic function like:
X=A*sin(x)....
k and m are costant so we don't care about them.
the question is :why we must buy another IC (i mean ad633) when probably we need just a wire and a switch?
In the VCA there is an input for the LFO (i mean S5 pin 2) which modulate the amplitude of a sound coming in.
just some other math:
X=A*sin(x)
A=B*sin(x)
A is a periodic function ! so we can modulate amplitude with osc 2 out connecting osc2 out with LFO in (or adding a new input)
I don't have build a sound lab yet but mathematics is mathematics!
try to connect S10 pin 1 with S5 pin2 and tell me everything!
I'm pretty shure that this will work, because i've tested it with nord modular g2 software, but I don't know if VCA works at high frequencies.here's some samples:
Description: |
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ring.mp3 |
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993.06 KB |
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1105 Time(s) |
Description: |
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ring modulator.pch2 |
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1.08 KB |
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1381 Time(s) |
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Macaba
Joined: Jul 13, 2005 Posts: 160 Location: UK
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24083 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:51 am Post subject:
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SuperKoopa wrote: | Just some math! |
Yes you are right, and yet you may be wrong :-)
On the NM synths the VCA can be used with both positive and negative control signals, where a negative control signal will invert the the polarity of the audio signal. It is a so called four quadrant multiplier.
In general though hardware VCA implementations do not allow for negative control signals (as this complicates the design of the analog circuit). This makes for a two quadrant multiplier, the audio signal can in general be both positive and negative.
A ring modulator should be a four quadrant multiplier, hence people with analog systems in general need something dedicated for this.
The other way arounf though, depending on the design of the ring modulater it might be possible to use the ring modulator as a VCA (one of the input signals hould be DC coupled so it can act as the control input).
Apart from this, ring modulators are not perfect, they distort. This distortion sometimes is experienced as a wanted efect, another reason to go for a particular implementation.
This non perfectness applies mostly to the "classical" implementation using a "diode ring" (that is where the name ring modulater comes from) and two transformers, but "modern" IC analog four quadrant multipliers are not exactly free of artifacts either. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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fluxmonkey
Joined: Jun 24, 2005 Posts: 708 Location: cleve
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:53 am Post subject:
Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab |
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I built this into another one of my noisebox synths w/ very good results. feed squarewaves into both inputs, and feed the output into another mix in. mine worked well on 12vdc, would expect it to be fine at 9v. as others have mentioned, not a true ringmod.
bbob |
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