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 Forum index » Reviews, Editorials and Commentary » Commentary and Editorials
American PBS Independence Under Attack - Bill Moyers
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Des, my country doesn´t do anything. What happens is that parents and coworkers will feel responsible to tale action. How else would anyone know that there is a problem?
The system itself works quite well. If a teacher doesn´t do a decent job, they will have serious problems keeping their job or finding a new job within the educational system. Bad teachers tend to be washed out of the system pretty early on.
I also live in a country where we do have health care and such for everyone.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DES wrote:
Ideally that would be great - have the citizens control who is hired and fired. It isn't real practical because of the enormity of doing this. Can you imagine having everyone in a township vote on whether to suspend a teacher? That is what the school board is "supposed" to be doing.


The people that run the schools are very concerned about public opinion and they are quite responsive if you try to work with them. Even the union doesnt want bad publicity. When approached without hostility, they try to do resonable things. The school board meetings are public events. People rarely attend them. School board elections typically have low participation rates. I'm going to my boards' meeting this Wednesday night to speak up against selling some public lands to housing developers. The system works when the public is involved.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I can promise you we have unions, but these rarely will touch a case where someone has been rightly fired due to incompetence.
Shit might happen though. Oskar is a teacher and he might tell you some about how this really works over here.
We have a different systemic problem .. but I´d like Oskar to get in here and explains that. A lot of teachers in Norway won´t get hired in steady jobs. They will have to do 10% at one school, get like 35% another place.. then commute to another county.. do 15 % there etc. This is a systemic problem. It is damned hard to even get a secure job as a teacher in Norway.

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DES



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I can promise you we have unions, but these rarely will touch a case where someone has been rightly fired due to incompetence. Shit might happen though.


That is the way it should be here but unless it is an open and shut case where illegal activities or such have been committed, the union gets involved and what should have only taken a few weeks to resolve changes into months of negotiating. All of this at the taxpayers expense. this same money which could be used to help the education system.

It's a real shame - the Unions have done so much to fight "the beast" are now turning into the same thing they were fighting.

Dave
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DES



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Des, my country doesn´t do anything. What happens is that parents and coworkers will feel responsible to tale action. How else would anyone know that there is a problem?
The system itself works quite well. If a teacher doesn´t do a decent job, they will have serious problems keeping their job or finding a new job within the educational system. Bad teachers tend to be washed out of the system pretty early on.
I also live in a country where we do have health care and such for everyone.


This is a great way to run it! It's a shame we can't do that here. Unfortunately there are a lot of obstacles in the form of the union that prevent this or at least make it very expensive to do. State run medicine here probably would not do that well until the rest of the problems with the insurance and attorney's were dealt with. Here it is a vicious circle....

Dave
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DES



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
The people that run the schools are very concerned about public opinion and they are quite responsive if you try to work with them. Even the union doesnt want bad publicity. When approached without hostility, they try to do resonable things. The school board meetings are public events. People rarely attend them. School board elections typically have low participation rates. I'm going to my boards' meeting this Wednesday night to speak up against selling some public lands to housing developers. The system works when the public is involved.


Well, here the NJEA perceives anything to do with letting a teacher go as a hostile attack on them - unless as I stated before it is an illegal or highly inappropriate behavioral issue. Just telling them that the teacher can't teach - well, it starts a long complicated process. Board meetings are great way to see the system working but you should not have to go to the board to file a complaint. You should be able to go to the school administrator. But yes there are times when you do have to go to the board - even write editorials for the local press.

As for the public land sales....we are getting really screwed by the Highlands statutes that the NJ government is passing..but that is not for this thread..

Dave
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Kassen wrote:
(except perhaps on the childeren thing, people tend to object to my thoughts there).


Yeah well, if there is any human future you'd need kids for it to happen I guess. So it depends a bit on your optimism here, I tend to be optimistic for the long term, so I guess we disagre indeed Smile


Yes, of cource. I´m not proposing a ban on having childeren, I´m talking about trying to lessen the strain of over-population, much like my resoning results in allowing SUV´s for people who like them so much they are willing to pay for them.

There is no shortage of childeren on a worldwide scale; I´d rather see the resources we have for them devided more equally.

About optimism, I´m pesimistic about the results that we´ll get if we continue on this cource but things will probably get unpleasant before they get realy bad and so behaviour will change. I´m quite optimistic about that; we are tremendoesly ingenious if we want to be, it´s just the phase of being forced to recognise some of these matters on a larger scale by unpleasant stuff that I fear.

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dmosc



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DES wrote:
I think that the only way taxes are ever going to be fair is through a flat tax - 10% or whatever is calculated. Get rid of all the bogus deductions and other loop holes. i.e. "Your gross pay was $100k - your tax is $10k. Your gross pay was $50k - your tax is $5k" Why should people be punished for making more money? Having wealthy people pay more percentage for tax is doing just that. Why should poorer people not get the same breaks as wealthy people do just because they own only one house or rent a place? Flat tax - the only way in my opinion.....

d


I am horribly opposed to a flat tax. I am trying to refrain from strong language here but the idea that a person who makes 10 billion dollars a year can only afford to pay the same percentage as a person who makes 20,000 is really hits a nerve. I favor an EXTREME graduated tax. more like

No taxes for your first 50k made
second 50k gets taxed 20%
third 50k (you make 150k a year now) gets taxed 40%
...
etc untill finally somebody making over 2 million dollars should be looking at a 60+% tax bracket. Last time I checked, you can live pretty well on 500k a year.

Why should somebody living near or below the poverty line pay ANY taxes? ANY?

Also, sales tax is a form of flat tax and should be federally banned. You shouldn't have to pay sales tax to feed and clothe your family.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
You shouldn't have to pay sales tax to feed and clothe your family.


Some states here in the US don't tax clothing or food. Some don't tax services either (restaurant food). I strongly agree with this.

My father basically raised us (as kids) with the following precept: he provided what we NEEDED (food, clothing, education). We worked for an allowance, that we could use to get shit we WANTED. Want something expensive? Start saving. It was pretty socialist, but imagine I'll raise my kids the same way. I know there's a difference between raising kids, who simply can't legally work, vs. a social system.

But having basic necessities is something, in this day & age, that human should provide for each other. Burning thousands of tons of food per year, simply to control costs & over production, simply don't have a place in a modern society that is still starving. WE are here together, like it or not. Eleviate the basic problems, and you solve many more.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Burning thousands of tons of food per year, simply to control costs & over production, simply don't have a place in a modern society that is still starving.


Yes, but be aware some issues involved are caused by the market ecomomy. Well, at least it shows some of the splendour of capitalism. Food is not a vital resource. Food is a commodity . In order to make it possible to seel food products at a sensible price ( with a profit ) you will have to control how much reaches the market. In most cases the destroyed goods are pretty much already paid for by the system.

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Oskar



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
. In most cases the destroyed goods are pretty much already paid for by the system.


So are we! I hope the bastards don't take it into their heads to make redundant people, such as myself, extinct. I may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean they ain't out to get me! Shocked

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deknow



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"redundant" is the "glass half empty" perspective. try "source of spare parts" to be optimistic cyclops
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Identifying, rounding up and sorting out what to do with the bad genes has already been done in many western civilized countries. Adolf Hitler was tremendously impressed by the work done in the US. All sorts of new age flyers were of all over the place in the 1920s. Cleaning the world of the vermin was a hot thing back then. In fact, this was kept up in Norway until the late 70s. Truly!
"Poor people? There must be something wrong with them? Why don´t they invest in stocks and choose to be rich like the rest of us? " Shocked

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

"Poor people? There must be something wrong with them? Why don´t they invest in stocks and choose to be rich like the rest of us? " Shocked


"If the people have no bread, let them eat cake."
Queen Marie Antoinette (of France) quote
Shocked

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dmosc



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

been listening to NPR because of this thread. NPR is national public radio, very similar to PBS. They are probably more tied than I know, anyway. They just put on:

"38% of military families qualify for government poverty aid like food stamps" (language changed due to a bad memory)

depressing. I guess bill gates really can't afford that extra percent of income tax we would need to care for the families dieing for his country.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From what I have read, Bill Gates is very generous to charities (and Apple Computers). As a poster child for the evil selfish capitalists, I not so sure he is the best choice.

The fact that many military families are very poor is not surprising. To many, the military is a good economic opportunity - relatively good pay, support for education, benefits, retirements, etc. The military targets poor people for recruiting. The decrease in life expectancy resulting from serving is just a recent contribution of George W. Bush.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

made this amidst some political fury.


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