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 Forum index » Reviews, Editorials and Commentary » Commentary and Editorials
American PBS Independence Under Attack - Bill Moyers
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seraph
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
We humans live in an illusion of our own design. I don't think it is an evil god that does this, it is just or operational methodology that has evolved. There is nothing to think that we won't evolve further in the future. We live not according to what really happens, but according to our stories about it. When we realize that these are only stories, then we can "escape this prison". The media is the institution at developies culture-wide storied. That's why it's important and influencial.


go back to this very old thread. it is related to this one (at least with the off topic part of it Rolling Eyes )
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-278.html
btw that book by Daniel Goleman I mention is still a required reading for those interested in analizing what "reality" could mean.

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Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex - Frank Zappa
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
This is a good analogy. We humans live in an illusion of our own design. I don't think it is an evil god that does this, it is just or operational methodology that has evolved. There is nothing to think that we won't evolve further in the future. We live not according to what really happens, but according to our stories about it. When we realize that these are only stories, then we can "escape this prison". The media is the institution at developies culture-wide storied. That's why it's important and influencial.


Indeed. I am looking into the Joseph Campbell stuff now. http://www.jcf.org/about_jcf.php
A guy sent me some lectures and interviews. Interesting stuff. His bio: http://www.jcf.org/about_jc.php

All this is OT.. but then again.. possibly not. We are musicians and are supposed to take this to some other level anyway.

Very Happy

Aren´t we kinda discussing PBS and the newsbiz the way we also would discuss the inner working of a synth patch? At least we are OTing on the fabric of reality and I don´t know about you guys, but I also do that while I make tacos.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
...and I don´t know about you guys, but I also do that while I make tacos.

right...and tortilla chips are the only path to enlightment Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
...and I don´t know about you guys, but I also do that while I make tacos.

right...and tortilla chips are the only path to enlightment Twisted Evil


According to modern lore, some swedish kings would probably want a tad more fiber though.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
According to modern lore, some swedish kings would probably want a tad more fiber though.

who?
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes... and there are clones..

Anyways.. PBS?

What do we do? "Mad Synthesists support PBS!"?

And how will Fox News mess that one up?
"...and some of these are foreigners.." = supporting PBS is unpatriotic

Question

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could we say that the current "winner takes all", us v.s. them, system in the U.S. politics obstructs a B.B.C.-like construction where you have government funded news that´s obligated to be independant and objective?

As I noted before; those systems are not perfect, the Dutch one is slanted heavily pro-status-quo, but at least they seem better then the purely commercial alternatives. I think the B.B.C. has it especially good since they are on a channel that has no commercials and so are less affected by the link between economics and politics.

What is standing in the way of even attempting this? To me it occured that that may be one of the important questions here. I don´t think this is about the PBS per-se, I think it´s about objective news agencies that are loyal to attempting to find the truth as opposed to making money or spinning opinion, never mind how hard finding truth may be, setting out to find it is a worthwhile goal in itself.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It is painful to imagine the USA without PBS. There is not a single media outlet, other than PBS, that does in-depth serious documentary programs. No matter what becomes of this recent PBS scandal, the net effect will be bad. The people who support this Bush administration don't value diversity of opinion, serious journalism, or the fine arts. Sure, there is the BBC (thank God for the BBC), but in the USA, the BBC is rebroadcasted on PBS.
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't forget that recently the last head of the BBC had to resign over the controversial coverage of the war in Iraq.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
Hear, hear. I'm quite tired of the "he said this, and this other guy said this, you decide what's truth" journalism going on on most media. They are so damn afraid of political pressure, no one is willing to commit to a story! Do the journalism, FIND THE TRUTH, and tell me what you found. That's what I expect.


Wow, well said. Journalism is not simply presenting news summaries from the administration, it's questioning and digging deeper for the real motivations and facts. Journalism = opinion.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Journalism is not simply presenting news summaries from the administration, it's questioning and digging deeper for the real motivations and facts.

this is exactly what i've been saying i wish pbs was (simply because the free market does not seem to encourage this)...and this is of course not achieved by putting some conservative shows/commentators to "balance" the liberal.

i am confused by one thing. exactly what news outlet do you think is simply spewing "administration news summaries"? fox? who else? certainly the major 3 networks, cnn, msnbc, pbs, nyt, etc are all very critical of the bush adminstration (and left leaning in their analysis). any one of these outlets would quickly get to press any "dirt" on the adminstration asap. do you think fox news and rush limbaugh are the prevailing news outlets? what "administration propaganda" do you think the other major outlets have been spreading without criticism or question?

i agree with howard, and i would hate to see an end to pbs. i also hate to see that pbs only appeals to americans on the left....if it had value as an analyzer and crititc of "the truth" as presented by the right and the left it would be more valuable to me (and i think, to us).
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow, you and I aren't going to agree on much so lets not get into it. I describe my political leanings as "anti-republican".

But my opinion on news media is that everything on TV is perdominantly right of center because that's where their interest is. All rich people have access to TV and cable, many poor folks do not. Furthermore, people who work later shifts or two jobs etc are less likely to watch evening news. These reasons alone push the viewpoints shown to the right due to a need for ratings. Also, the US population has been convinced that Democrats are left and republicans are right, which is only relatively true. If you ask americans direct policy questions, they will predominantly be more "liberal" than either party.

Are you for more spending on education? yes
Are you for more enviornmental protections? yes
Are you for a more graduated tax scale? yes

There is a growing seperation between the political parties and the people and although there are many reasons for it, they all push things right. In my mind, the democratic party is "centralist" and the republican party is "extremely right" so "fair and unbalanced" would be approximately in line with liberal democratic party views which I feel PBS is.

PBS has long been a supporter of education, the enviornment, free speech, and countless other "liberal" beliefs that I feel are actually "mainstream" to the american people, just not to the political parties

so all that liberal garbage I hope doesn't enrage you but it is how I feel about the media.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not so concerned about political bias, or the lack of it, as in depth and quality. I would enjoy a right leaning documentary that takes one hour on any subject. But Fox and the other major networks don't do these "expensive" programs any more. A Fox in-depth program on any subject lasts about 10 minutes max and the quality is poor. The only place you can see in-depth coverage these days is on PBS and the BBC.

Now to comment on D's thoughts that the media is pro Bush. If you watch Fox the central theme is FEAR. There is crime, loss of morals, anarchy, terror, jobs leaving the country, millions of illegal immigrants,tons of government waste, corrupt judges, culture wars against Christian values etc. This is just what the Bush administration thrives on. Above all, Fox represents superficial and shallow thinking. It is anti-intellectual. Republicans love this kind of world view.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

d,
i don't care what your political beliefs are....i'm only interested in having a discussion.

Quote:
But my opinion on news media is that everything on TV is perdominantly right of center because that's where their interest is.
thats fine, i agree. "right of center" does not however always equal "bush adminstration news summaries". if the media is right of "center" (and i have no idea what center is, except maybe one's own beliefs) because they exist in a capatilistic system where making money allows them to grow i can't say i have a problem with that. this is totaly differant than blindly supporting the adminstration (which is what you claimed they were doing in your previous post).

Quote:
All rich people have access to TV and cable, many poor folks do not.
...i think almost 99% of housholds (and 97% of "poor") have color televisions in the us (and i believe it's a higher percentage than have phones). as for cable, you have to factor in dish and all that (i think 62% of "poor" housholds have one or the other). internet is available at almost all public libraries. newspapers are free to read at any library as well.
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/Issues2004/poverty-and-inequality.cfm ...yes, a polarized source...if you have better data, i'd like to see it.

as far as your "direct policy questions", i'm really not sure what to say. in your (presumably imaginary survey), did you ask how much in taxes these people want to pay (imho, the results would support a conservative adgenda, not a liberal one)? i bet if you taxed based on such a survey, you couldn 't fund any federal (or state) budget, no matter what. asking people if they want "goodies" seems besides the point. other direct questions that you might not want to ask are "are you in favor of gay marrige? racial profiling? abortion?" ...you might not like the answers to those questions (and in times of crisis things get more uncomfortable for blacks, immigrants, jews, transexuals, etc).

i'm not sure when free speech and education became liberal beliefs...as far as i know, most conservates support both concepts (although they approach them differantly).

the "liberal garbage" doesn't offend me in the least...i simply think you were wrong to state that the media gets its marching orders from the adminstration. you seem to have changed your tune to "the media is a business, and therefore supports a more conservative, pro business political adgenda" which i agree with...and short of having a government controlled and funded media, i don't see how it could be differant.

i am in favor of pbs...and always have been. i don't think they are evil, but i do think they could server a more important role.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
The only place you can see in-depth coverage these days is on PBS and the BBC.
i agree 100% with the above. since it is "public", and since it fits in a niche that commercial outlets don't seem to fit, i don't see why it shouldn't be more balanced than it is.

i also agree with your comments about fox (fear, etc)...but i think it's true of all of the capitalistic media (is it not)? does fox deserve special criticism in this regard? does your local newscaster reflect deep thinking? does dan rather? does michael moore? tv is shallow, period.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have asked my american politics professor for a copy of a video or some way to get at a transcript at least. I think it explains the failings and conservative bias of the media better than I could.

Deknow, you put a lot of words in my mouth with that post that I don't believe. I do not believe fox or any other news group purposely takes it's news "orders" from the administration, I just feel they focus more on "passing along" whitehouse press releases than actually covering things. Things released by the whitehouse are clearly going to portray the administration in a positive light. In general, no matter what the administration, the media should be more critical.

I have often noted flipping from channel x to channel y during news time to see the exact same stories with the exact same words. "the whitehouse today announced blah blah blah in and effort to blah blah blah." They're reading from the white house's press briefings. It's not journalism, it's an embarrasment. The only time they dig any deeper into political issues is when somebody sucked on a cigar or came out of the closet or something else "more interresting" than a war, the biggest change in civil liberties since the 60s, or anything to do with global politics.

I have trouble with these questions to determine public opinion as well. Americans are very uneducated on politics and often view it as rude conversation in general. You can show their opinions to be anything by asking the right question. They're too stupid to read between the lines and understand what you're really asking. They don't realize that "more spending on x" means higher taxes. They don't realize that "a more fair and balanced tax code" means more taxes for the poor and less for the rich.

Still, I would say in general the average public values or "center" of our beliefs, is slightly LEFT of the democratic party's core values.

Clearly in religions and ethics issues this is less the case than in economic issues. Perhaps economically, both parties are extreme right where in ethics issues like abortion, the parties are appropriately split.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.nationmaster.com/

there is a great site with some more hard numbers on the US and the rest of the world on things like weath, education, religion, crime, etc etc etc

it says for example that 57% of the US uses the internet (7th in the world), 67% have phone lines (11th in the world), and 25% have cable (6th in the world) and 75% own a tv (4th in the world)

but my favorite one (I'm a Michal Moore fan) is "Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm."

US: 8,259 (1999)
UK: 62 (1999)
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
does your local newscaster reflect deep thinking? does dan rather? does michael moore? tv is shallow, period.


My local newspaper is run by the Chicago Tribune Company, over 1000 miles away. There is nothing local about it. There is not even a weekly or monthly newspaper here that offers political commentary on the local scene. When they took over the paper, they fired almost everyone with a differing opinion; I know because a good friend was working there at the time. There isn't even a web site with differing opinion on local issues. Our local news radio is owned by Clearchannel, who also owns 4 of the top 5 stations in the area.

Dan Rather is another story. I remember that at one time he was the darling of the Republicans. He was the only major TV news type that Nixon would have interviews with during Watergate because he would just toss him softballs. It's interesting to me how he suddenly became a liberal.

Michael Moore makes bad films but they do make me think. Especially his Columbine film. That had some great concepts well reasoned and presented. I generally agree with his positions. I wish he had more trust in the integrity of his audience. He doesn't have to exaggerate his case or fabricate to make his points. He would be more influencial if he was more professional and restrained in his manner.

"TV is shallow period". I have seen some great stuff on PBS, especially the Frontline program, but also on the American Experience and NOVA that were not shallow. The media of TV isn't the problem it is the audience. The US audience isn't interested in in-depth anything. The capitalist media is just giving them what they want. If they wanted in-depth coverage of the news, science, history, art, even entertainment, there would be TV programs to satisfy that need.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

d,
if i put words in your mouth, i apologize...it didn't seem the case to me.

saying the following:

Quote:
Journalism is not simply presenting news summaries from the administration, it's questioning and digging deeper for the real motivations and facts.

and
Quote:
I just feel they focus more on "passing along" whitehouse press releases than actually covering things.


...your above statements (in my mind, but correct me if i'm mistaken), ignore the fact that the news media is lazy...period. of course the whitehouse puts out press releases that make them look good, and i agree it's terrible that any news organization would just pass that along verbatim (the viewers should demand more than that). i just don't see that anyone (including the bush adminstration) gets favorable treatment in this regard....almost every news item is a press release, and there is no commentary, no criticism, and it's appaling. i just don't see that the media in general is more inclined to read a press release from the white house than they are from the teachers union, hammas, ralph nader, democratic party, jane fonda, south korea, or anyone that makes (or can make) news. i would agree 100% with your above statements if they didn't imply that the adminstration is the only one to have their views broadcast. again, i apologize if i put any words in your mouth that you did not mean.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting. I think of the press people who call me for information about electro-music 2005. They are responding to our press release. Most who say they are doing a story don't ask any questions. The call is more to verify that this is a legit event than to understand what it is about and what it means. It's as though the press release was the story - all they need.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes, that's more my point than anything for or against the administration. I don't feel that the news media is particularly guilty of it for republican agenda. I think it's a general problem whither they're doing a story on e-m or the latest crime figures "crime is down for the third year in a row".

Now, I do critisize them for a conservative bias as well, but it's a seperate problem. The conservative bias springs more from their audience, their corperate sponsors, their corperate managers, and their quest for ratings. Each of these pushes things to the right and away from the ideals of classical journalism.

I must admit you put the two togeather and you do get a general political bias. The movie I am trying to get a hold of discusses a CNN report on traffic in Boston discussing the various options. It then mentioned how of the half dozen or so options of road construction or city ordinance changes, increased public transit through a monorail or even busses was not even discssed. This is well fitting with 3 of the 5 adds during the break being from car manufacturers. I wonder why they don't want the news talking about buses? clearly there is a conflict of interest there.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Interesting. I think of the press people who call me for information about electro-music 2005. They are responding to our press release. Most who say they are doing a story don't ask any questions. The call is more to verify that this is a legit event than to understand what it is about and what it means. It's as though the press release was the story - all they need.


Yeah, that happens a lot. It´s also why many "pressreleases" about new records read like they are positive reviews.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.mediaed.org/videos/CommercialismPoliticsAndMedia/ConstructingPublicOpinion/#

there's a link to the video I was discussing. Note that it is a liberal group but I feel the information is very factual, at least on economic issues. It doesn't really get into abortion or gay marrage or other hot button social issues.

I would be very excited to hear your opinions on it. Right now I haven't wantched it in 3 years though. Hopefully when I get home I can get the link to work.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well, it looks like it only has the first 5 minutes. It goes on to show how big business relates to the media and how polls can be used to support anything. it then talks about the "fast paced" world of TV news where the "story" is here for 30 seconds RIGHT AWAY and then gone forever. No investigative jounalism is possible in that situation, only presenting of the facts, which is hard enough as it is. They finally show quite convincingly how all these features push political party platforms quite literally to the right on economic and social issues.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
If you ask americans direct policy questions, they will predominantly be more "liberal" than either party.

Are you for more spending on education? yes
Are you for more enviornmental protections? yes
Are you for a more graduated tax scale? yes
.


I think that if you really looked into it you would find most people are disgusted with the hard left and right posturing that is going on. Yes alot want better education but are getting sick and tired of having the teachers and their unions soaking the local municipalities dry and crying how they need more money. Well, they might have enough money if the administrators and teachers were making realistic wages. The education would be better too if the teachers actually took a real interest in teaching and not just generating homework and letting the books do the teaching. I have put three kids through school - now they are in college.. The teaching system in the US is what is bad - not the funding. Evil or Very Mad

Environmental protection is an absolute priority. It is not - as many people want to make it to be - only a political issue. Both sides have wealthy people and it's the wealthy business owners/mangers/CEO's that need to bite the bullet and get on with protecting the environment. Why should my tax dollar be going to clean up an environmental mess that some wealthy company made and found a loophole to get out of cleaning it up? Go after the people who ran the company and their board of directors, stock holders, etc. - make them pay. When you stop giving the weasels a way out and make them fiscally responsible it's amazing how fast things will get fixed. This is where the politics come in. Depending on which political person/party is on a companies (due to donations, kickbacks, etc..) side will determine which Environmental policies are put into place...and almost always end up giving the weasels a way out. The way to effect REAL change is not by blaming one of the political parties but by boycotting the manufacturers directly....then their political money means nothing.

I think that the only way taxes are ever going to be fair is through a flat tax - 10% or whatever is calculated. Get rid of all the bogus deductions and other loop holes. i.e. "Your gross pay was $100k - your tax is $10k. Your gross pay was $50k - your tax is $5k" Why should people be punished for making more money? Having wealthy people pay more percentage for tax is doing just that. Why should poorer people not get the same breaks as wealthy people do just because they own only one house or rent a place? Flat tax - the only way in my opinion.....

d
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