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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
1.4 update
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deknow



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:33 am    Post subject: 1.4 update Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this was on the g2 yahoogroup:...i assume this may be what is being presented by clavia at em05....deknow


Nord Modular G2 software revision 1.40

The main feature of the 1.4 revision is an evolutionary patch mutator
developed by Clavia associate, composer and researcher Palle Dahlstedt.

The generator is an implementation of Dahlstedts MutaSynth concept, a
result of several years of research at Chalmers University of
Technology, Sweden.

This new tool greatly simplifies the programming of modular patches,
by effectively turning the knobs for you. Listen to the results and
simply select the the best sounds. A family of new patch variations
can be generated from any existing sound, and two different variations
can even be mated, to produce exciting new sounds. Using evolutionary
computation, a subdiscipline of the research field "artificial life",
the process is similar to the selective breeding of plants. The
process can be repeated in any number of generations, greatly
simplifying the creation of novel sounds and the exploration of the
vast potential of the Nord Modular G2 line of synthesizers.

It may sound complicated, but it is really easy to use, and it will be
a real boost to what is already the most flexible hardware synthesizer
on the market. Producing great sounds have never been this easy.

The update is free of charge and all G2, G2x and engine users can
download it in the near future from www.clavia.se. There will also be
a corresponding new version of the Nord Modular G2 Demo software.
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mother misty



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

whow.... interesting!! Sounds very promising....
whish I could be there...
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jamos



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

<yawn>

Turtle Beach had this feature on their Proteus synth editors back in the eighties. I can't remember the name of the feature, but you could specify two patches and then generate a bank that interpolated the differences.

Presumably this is more sophisticated, but fundamentally the same thing: generative patch development.

I hope this is not the only major change, otherwise it doesn't sound like much of an upgrade.
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Afro88



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Alot of software patch editors have this feature too.

I think it would be all together more interesting on the G2 though, especially for sequencer and noodle patches. Can't wait to see/hear the specifics.
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The Why Project



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On the software editors from soundtower.com (I use the Evolver
editor from them), this option is also available.
It works great, and sometimes comes up with an 'interpolation' that's
really cool.
I wonder how it will interact with stuff like sequencers, clock dividers,
constant values etc... before you know your carefuly programmed patch
has become some unrecognisable warble Smile

Regards,

The Why Project
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cebec



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've used Mutasynth on/off for awhile and it's not your run-of-the-mill 'random' patch generator. I'm interested in seeing how much control we'll be given over this tool.

I also hope the update includes some of the wishes and bug fixes we've requested on this forum and elsewhere.

I feel a bit embarrased by Clavia's marketing-ese in that statement. They make it sound as if they're offering 'EZ 1-2-3 Super Modular Sound Maker' more than a potentially powerful and interesting implementation of algorithm-assisted sound design.

Wout posted this in Harmony Central's Keyboard, Synths, and Samplers forum -- it's Per's doctoral thesis:

http://www.id.gu.se/palle/dokt/DahlstedtSoundsUnheardof.pdf

Last edited by cebec on Tue May 31, 2005 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is Clavia struggling financially? Just out of curiousity...it seems most of their efforts have been attempts at marketing / publicising the Nord products, rather than developing new fangled toys.

Don't get me wrong, this feature seems like it could be fun (if it's true), especially during moments of creative duress.

But the last 6 months have seen (from where I stand) more effort on the Modular Demo, than on the modular itself. This might not be true, and some kind of major update might be in the pipe somewhere... shit. I forgot what my point was.
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deknow



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i dunno, i don't find any reason to complain that clavia continues working on improving the equipment i already own. there are features i'd like to see that i'm sure will not be in 1.4, or perhaps ever, but these are far outweighed by what it does do (which is why i bought it in the first place). add to that the fact that clavia is sending someone to em2005 makes me feel cared for, not victimized.

deknow
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egw



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I had a chance to play with the new editor a little at EM2005.
It's really cool, very easy to use and intuitive.
A great creative stimulus if you're looking for new sounds.
Can also be applied to sequences, etc.

I guess it is still to be finalized exactly which parameters of which modules will be "randomized"
and which ones will not be changed (such as tempo, some switches, sequence length etc.)
Also some parameters will have a nonlinear probability distribution (e.g. attack time).
Unfortunately these factors will be fixed and cannot be customized by the user, at least initially.
Perhaps this will come in a later update.
Also it is possible to do customization by creating a patch that uses midi to control another patch.
The midi patch can be mutated and that would only affect the parameters you want.

This new feature is perhaps a bit humbling. No matter how good you are at programming sounds,
with the push of a button you can generate 8 variations, and some of them will inevitably sound better!
It is a kind of democratization, now a less experienced programmer can come up with all kinds of
different, unusual, interesting sounds. You only need a good ear to evaluate them and evolve them further.
There will be new kinds of patches, ones that are designed to be mutated and have certain kinds of flexibility.

Many thanks to Palle for making the trip to E-M 2005 and showing us this new feature.
We are honored that Clavia chose this venue to announce it.
Also it is a very positive sign that Clavia wants to participate in the community, interact with users and get their feedback.
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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
Is Clavia struggling financially? Just out of curiousity...it seems most of their efforts have been attempts at marketing / publicising the Nord products, rather than developing new fangled toys.

Don't get me wrong, this feature seems like it could be fun (if it's true), especially during moments of creative duress.

But the last 6 months have seen (from where I stand) more effort on the Modular Demo, than on the modular itself. This might not be true, and some kind of major update might be in the pipe somewhere... shit. I forgot what my point was.



I heard that all teire actual synths even the nord stage is based on the G2 engine somehow... I think a little company lke clavia has to sell quite a few units to amortize the still ongoing development.. I think the will develop on top of this engine for a while before they do something totally new... But its better like this.. i cant afford a new synth every year...
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davep



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:
I had a chance to play with the new editor a little at EM2005.
It's really cool, very easy to use and intuitive.
A great creative stimulus if you're looking for new sounds.
Can also be applied to sequences, etc.
(SNIP)
We are honored that Clavia chose this venue to announce it.
Also it is a very positive sign that Clavia wants to participate in the community, interact with users and get their feedback.


I also got to play around with it for a while and I agree. Among other things, I tried mutating some of the factory sounds that I made and the results were pretty interesting. These were mostly patches that were intended as complete virtual synth instruments, with lots of mod mixers & lots of parameter assignments to try to allow the end user to create lots of new patches even without the editor attached, just by twiddling knobs. For these types of patches, the mutator/breeder/randomizer can work really well.

However, there are some types of patches that really need the ability to 'lock' individual parameters and prevent them from being randomized/mutated/interpolated. For example, lots of FM patches will completely fall apart of you alter the tunings. Although you may want to create FM patches with the tuning parameter set to "partial" and then you might get some interesting stuff when you mutate them, you still may often want to prevent changes in these parameters. Also, if the patch wasn't created with the oscs set to 'partial' tuning in the first place, changing this after the fact will instantly screw up the tunings anyway, even before you press the 'randomize' button. Another example would be some physical modeling patches that rely on a diode module being set to a specific switch position, or a shaper module staying set to EXP2 in order for the patch to work at all. In fact, there are lots and lots of instances when a module that CAN be varied should NOT be varied, because it is not intended as a variable parameter, it is part of a circuit that must remain unaltered for the circuit to work at all.

I think this new feature can be really great, but I strongly urge Clavia to provide a simple way to 'lock' individual parameters. This will make it far more useful on a much wider variety of patches.

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deknow



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dave, where the "randomize" function is concerned, i totally agree, it would be much more useful if you could exclude parameters manually. there are workarounds, but not real easy ones.

rob pointed out to me that if you are "mating" two patches, then parameters that are identical (ie, the ones you didn't change yourself in making the variation) do not change. to me, that seems very useful...can't wait to try it!

deknow
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cebec



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree, Dave.

I can't see myself using it too much until they allow us to lock certain parameters or specify which ones we'd like to control. In fact, just allowing us to choose from several templates or start with a blank slate and indicate which controls we'd like to include in the mutation or randomization would be a better place to start than no control over those attributes at all.

That's really important to making this a more interactive and intelligent feature and I don't imagine it would be too difficult to implement rather quickly.
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richard s



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"I strongly urge Clavia to provide a simple way to 'lock' individual parameters."

actually even the basic randomizers available for the evolver and andromeda have this function. I'll have to get my hands on 1.4 to judge it but I've found most randomizers to be disappointingly useless in the past. The fact that you guys are excited means this must be better... but without being able to lock individualparameters (or types of parameter) its difficult for me to see why...

Richard
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deknow



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the reaon cited at the talk for why there is no way to lock parameters on the randomization is that it would require each control to have another "property"associated with it (locked, or unlocked), which would require redoing the entire patch storage system in the g2. i don't quite understand why this can't happen on the editor end only, but that is how it was explained.

again, the genetics seems more promising for complicated patches. the interface seems like you can generate and audition sounds very quickly.

deknow
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seraph
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jamos wrote:
<yawn>

Turtle Beach had this feature on their Proteus synth editors back in the eighties.

I remember doing something like this with X-OR by Dr.T's on my Atari back in the 80's too Very Happy

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As long as there are fundamental shortcomings that hinder the G2 to work up to spec (Remember: using delay-memory based modules effectively turns the G2 into a 16bit machine), features like this assume the status of gimmicks in my book.

...And this from a company that calls itself a "no-bells-and-whistles" manufacturer... Rolling Eyes

Considering this and considering that dedicated physical modelling modules are not seeming to happen (although "physcial modelling" is still used as advertisement buzzword), the whole thing leaves a not so nice feeling.

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cebec



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Howard asked Palle during the question/answer session if Clavia were aware of and/or considering any of the wishes, bug reports, and module requests that are piling up in electro-music.com's Nord Modular forum archives.

Palle's answer seemed terse: i.e.,'they (Clavia) are small... and dedicated right now to the Nord Stage and the G2 1.40 update/patch mutator' and also 'Buy for what is offered, now, not what you hope for'

I agree, though, there are some pressing issues for which we have no clear answers or resolution -- functionality that seems to be arbitrarily omitted and capability that is not the quality it should be.

On the subject of the patch mutator: I have contacted support directly letting them know the importance of allowing locked/unlocked parameters. I'd also like to add that I hope they can make the mutator completely MIDI compliant, i.e., allow it to control other software and hardware and itself via MIDI.
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jamos



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, boy. Buy it for the patch mutator. Confused

I'm happy with the G2.. don't even mind the 16-bit delays.. but I sure wish Clavia would listen to customer requests rather than any random PhD candidate who walks in the door Smile.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have mixed feelings about this as I said at the EM2005 event. Personally, I'd rather have a fixed filter bank and binary up/down counter with asynchronous preset modules, but Palle's tool would be good to have too. It is certainly a luxury item or a frill, not a core function. Still, he did a good job and I look forward to the new release.

When he described the work he did, I was hopeful that he was going to announce that Clavia was going to open source the editor so other people could develop applications for the G2. Unfortunately, the chorus from Palle and Rob was "that will never happen." no no

Too bad about that and the module deficiencies, but the G2 is still far and away my favorite synth, and Pella's features will make it even better. However, I'm not going to stop sharing my ideas about making it better and I encourage people to keep adding stuff to the wish list forum. Palle did say the developers at Clavia read the forum.

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cebec



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

...Too bad about that and the module deficiencies, but the G2 is still far and away my favorite synth, and Palle's features will make it even better. However, I'm not going to stop sharing my ideas about making it better and I encourage people to keep adding stuff to the wish list forum...


I couldn't agree more!
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
'Buy for what is offered, now, not what you hope for'


Well, I bought the G2 for what it was advertised: a synth with a true 24bit 96kHz audio path. Something that it isn't.

All I'm "hoping" for is that Clavia manages to meet their own advertised specifications.

They advertise the G2 as a 24 bit machine, and they also advertise it (among other things) as a synth capable of physical modelling. But nowhere is there a big warning sign: Attention! Using delay lines reduces audio bandwidth to 16 bits!.

That's my beef here, and it is rather big beef.

Therefore, I stay with my position: As long as this isn't sorted out, all these new "features" are just gimmicks in my book.

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cebec



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

good point, tim. i'm looking forward to how or if Clavia will respond...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Personally, I'd rather have a fixed filter bank and binary up/down counter with asynchronous preset modules......

.


I could not agree more on this.
It is nice to have a usefull random tool but i rather would like to see some more math tools and some better sequencer(s)
And some sampling / granular ....... Very Happy
I know. . . . . only a dream Shocked
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

W.T. wrote:

It is nice to have a usefull random tool but i rather would like to see some more math tools and some better sequencer(s)
And some sampling / granular ....... :D
I know. . . . . only a dream :shock:


I can very well see the validity of a preference for better math tools etc, that's not the point here. I hae some wishes as well.

But to call the evolution system a "usefull random tool" is not doing it justice IMO. As it does a bit more than just produce random: it can guide you, I think, in the search for good sounds.

Jan.
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