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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
1.4 update
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Kassen
Janitor
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hyde wrote:
good point, kassen and dasz. to clarify: i had my micro for a year before OSX came out. i had a thousands of patches and no OSX support. admittedly, we did finally get a craptacular OSX beta Editor which is better than nothing. but Clavia staunchly said - we aren't going to update our stuff and even if you bought it 1 month ago too bad. you're only option is to keep a copy of an old OS lying around if you want to use your (potentially new) machine. that to me (and alot of other people) sucked and sucked BAD. if you know that you aren't going to update your app to run under current operating systems then that is planned obsolescence (to me). did your printer or cd burner or other hardware manufacturer tell you 'sorry to hear that you just spent a bunch of money on something we aren't going to support any longer - but hey, if you want to burn a CD, just boot into your old OS and it will still work fine."? as a matter of fact - they were still selling G1 units when OSX was out for over a year! i dunno. back on point though - we've been waiting an awfully long time for an update.


Yeah, ok, you are right there, those are very understandable sentiments. The OSX beta is suffering from some issues and as I understand it at least some of those are quite well documented with a simple known solution. I'm no OSX user but as I understand the matter that issue with the missing font is inexcusable and would be trivial to fix for a OSX developer.

It's clear that Clavia wants all NM users to move to the G2 and it's also clear that not everybody is going to move. Patch compatibility is a issue, money might be and the G2 can't touch the Micro for compact setups. I'd say that you are right to some degree; Clavia certainly won't be sad if the "craptacular OSX beta Editor" is making people get a G2 instead but I suspect that the main factor there might be a shortage of resources.

After all; it'd be very bad advertising. If a obsolte NM forces you to go to the still suported G2, excatly how long will the G2 be suported?

As a alternative; a Pentium 200MHz running Win98 and the NM editor in the "startup" folder would be quite cheap these days (asuming you have no friends that are willing to simply give one away) and having a dedicated NM editor computer is quite pleasant. Just boot straight into the editor and there will be no need for you to ever see Windows or have to deal with it.

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Kassen
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Kassen
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G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
it would take a lot of effort by Clavia to open this up to the world, and still maintain their own control of their product.


Absolutely, I think that's the core of it as well as support. As soon as it's open there will be "plugins". Some of those will be great, some will be buggy, some will crash the whole thing outright.

This will give the G2 a repuation for being unstable; in practice it will make the average G2 on stage way less stable then the average laptop and we all know what reputation those have. It will also bring pure hell to all helpdesks asociated with Clavia.

It's simply not worth it. There's C-sound, MAX/MSP / PD, there's SupperCollider, Synthedit, several musical branches of Lisp and Forth, both DX and VST are well documented with ready made libraries and for the terminally psychotic there's ChucK. Aside from MAX those are all free and open as far as I know. All or most of those will take MIDI from the G2 and are able to send MIDI to it and do the same with audio. Some will even recompile while running without those anoying dropouts. Not as pritty and not as easy but they are here now. I'm not trying it but on a decent connection you could actually hold your breath for real and have one on your pc before you choke.

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Kassen
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monobass



Joined: Nov 30, 2004
Posts: 273
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wouldn't want anything in my G2 which made it less stable, and It's not really the feature set of the G2 that I have issue with. It would just be nice if Clavia were just a bit less cloak and dagger... It would only take one of their representatives to post a short message keeping people up to date and I think that would help a lot.

They are a small company so no one expects miracles.. but you do expect smaller companies to be a bit more community minded instead. The C74 developers helping out on the max/msp mailing list really makes all the difference.

The only thing I personally feel is 'missing' is the old random access sample buffer thang.. but if Clavia don't want to do that.. I'll live Smile

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jamos



Joined: Jun 01, 2004
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Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I too would be utterly opposed to and dismayed by any sort of plugin-architecture or open sourcing of the G2 system. It's reliable, amazingly powerful, sounds great, and does not need expansion beyond the addition of new modules.

I'm plying in a band lately with a couple of laptoppers who use tons of plugins. Their systems tend to crash once per session. I never crash.
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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm a live musician and stability/reliability is one of the main reasons why I chose the G2 and not a computer-based solution. I've used the G2 for a tour this year comprising of many weeks of preparation and rehearsals, plus 50 gigs on the road. It has never, ever, behaved strangely or crashed.

I wouldn't like to put that at risk via open-sourcing.

Plus, I haven't even mastered all the existing G2 modules yet.

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beer
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ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In addition to stability, we would loose the patch portability to a degree.
For example, here is my new prf2, you will need to download this module from www.Idonothing4free.com, very reasonable price.
Rolling Eyes
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jksuperstar



Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That all said, it woudn't effect the product to allow expansion of the editor!

This would allow tools to grab your whole keyboard & do a 1-click back up or restore. Or allow people to code in hierachical module building blocks, add specialized calculators that use clavia units, or even give MIDI access for local programs, or even internetworking (imagine a internet-jam?!). or port to linux...
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letalis



Joined: Jul 23, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I can't see how a more open aproach to the API:s and inner workings could be a negative thing.

You talk about stability. Think about this: I'm a long time linux user, a operating system entirely open source, I've had crappy machines built of left over parts running for more than half a year withouth rebooting them.

Recently I have switched to apple-machines, using OSX, an operating system built on BSD and Mach - both open source projects, BSD well known for its fantastic stability. And this without beeing very hard to use.

I recently bought myself a squeezebox from slimdevices, a piece of hardware for wireless streaming of music from a server built with open source software. A great machine that is very stable.

I'm not saying that open source software per definition is more stable than closed source software, just that stability is not a good argument against a more open approach.
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
That all said, it woudn't effect the product to allow expansion of the editor!

This would allow tools to grab your whole keyboard & do a 1-click back up or restore. Or allow people to code in hierachical module building blocks, add specialized calculators that use clavia units, or even give MIDI access for local programs, or even internetworking (imagine a internet-jam?!). or port to linux...


Absolutely. I've been advocating this very concept for a while now. Without any risk to Clavia's secret algorithems this would nearly instantly fix the "Mac fonts" issue and I think it'd be quite realistc to make a sort of "editor pluging" that would read from a ethernet port, parse inputs and write to knob settings for simple OSC input. And the noodle radio.

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BobTheDog



Joined: Feb 28, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

letalis wrote:
I can't see how a more open aproach to the API:s and inner workings could be a negative thing.

You talk about stability. Think about this: I'm a long time linux user, a operating system entirely open source, I've had crappy machines built of left over parts running for more than half a year withouth rebooting them.

Recently I have switched to apple-machines, using OSX, an operating system built on BSD and Mach - both open source projects, BSD well known for its fantastic stability. And this without beeing very hard to use.

I recently bought myself a squeezebox from slimdevices, a piece of hardware for wireless streaming of music from a server built with open source software. A great machine that is very stable.

I'm not saying that open source software per definition is more stable than closed source software, just that stability is not a good argument against a more open approach.


BSD took a really long time to become stable, much of this time is was not "open source" see ( http://daemonz.org/bugs/history.html).

I must admit I chose the G2 as it offered a modular system that was very stable, a stable system is one that is not usually changed much.

Cheers


Andy
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Kassen
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G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

letalis wrote:

I'm not saying that open source software per definition is more stable than closed source software, just that stability is not a good argument against a more open approach.


To be clear; I'm posting this from my DeMuDi (DEbian MUsic DIstro) and two meters to my right my laptop is currently merrily jamming by itself running ChucK which is a open source audio programing language. This post is going to go through our home server/firewall down the stairs which runs Redhat and also hosts my site; I'm greatly in favour of open source.

The issue here is that nearly everybody is less qualified as a DSP sound programer then Magnus from Clavia is. That's cool, that shouldn't stop anybody from having fun and expressing their own personalised ideas on how instruments should work.

However, the majority of customers for the Modular series sees free downloads as a part of their deal. Modulars are being sold with free downloadable patches as a strong sales point. If those people were to download something me or you posted with a note that it works most of the time and that feedback and bugreports are needed they'll lose the note and will run to the nearest helpdesk with a complaint along the lines of "my synth doesn't work, what's wrong?".

With Linux everybody but the most adventurous will download a complete kernel with matching tools form some organistation that takes care of quality controll. If you make a Csound opcode you run it yourself and perhaps have a few friends test it, generally you don't upload it to the web on your own; you send it to John Ffitch who may or may not include it in the "official" version. If we have all sorts of homebrew code bouncing around without one or two persons to do quality controll it's going to be a mess and there will be crashes.

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eposk



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.clavia.se/products/nordmodular/software.htm
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Locking this topic. It contains all of the pre-1.4 discussion. Post 1.4 release discussion is going on over here: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-9588.html
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