electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Cross-Modulation
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 2 [33 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: toronto, canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Cross-Modulation Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i have run into a few patches on soft-synths that i am really finding inspiring and useful that seem to use 'cross modulation' or 'inter-modulation'

can anyone shed light on the general principles and procedures for 'cross-modulation'

i would love to learn how to apply this to other patches that do not have this snazzy 'cross modulate' action

_________________
Spiral Recordings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i believe cross modulation is just another name for vocoding...but i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.

deknow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: toronto, canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i could be using the wrong term...but these siunds are not vocoded that i can say for sure

it sounds like 2 oscilators beating against each other and then somehow that is also modulated...or something like that hehe

maybe i should post a quick example

_________________
Spiral Recordings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

according to this:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may00/articles/synth.htm
cross modulation is just another term for fm, but i'm pretty sure i've heard it used as term for vocoding (not necessarily correctly).

deknow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: toronto, canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here's an exmplae of what i mean...

you can hear a kind of 'warbling' effect ... has a 'longing' or sad kind of effect

this is from the Pro-53 patch 'inter-modulate pad'


inter-modulate.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  inter-modulate.mp3
 Filesize:  167.76 KB
 Downloaded:  746 Time(s)


_________________
Spiral Recordings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here's a quickie


crossmod.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  crossmod.pch2
 Filesize:  1012 Bytes
 Downloaded:  980 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17630
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 125
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cross modulation is a great technique. GREAT.

Take two voltage controlled oscillators - called A and B.

Take the output of A and plug it into the FM input of B and plug the output of B into the FM input of A. That's cross modulation. too much coffee

Run each modulation input through an attenuator or an amplifier. The important thing is that these are modulation index controls for the two oscillators.

Mix A and B and send to the output (could go through filters, envelope generators, effects, etd).

If you use a keyboard, you can connect one or both to the keyboard.

Controls are the 2 freq knobs, 2 modulation indexes, waveforms and the mix of the two oscillators.

For two years, this was just about the only patch I used on the NM1. I use it on the Moog Modular - wonderful. It makes beautiful harmonics. It is also a chaotic system - very difficult to predict what will happen with the modulation indexes are cranked up. Depending on your temperment, you will either love or hate this. Can you tell how I feel?

Laughing

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
DrJustice



Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2054
Location: Morokulien
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mosc, I was deeply into cross modulation patches on my Digisound 80 modular. The wonderful long equillibriums, the surprises and pure madness of it - yes, I can tell how you feel Smile

While, I'm here: the "Modular Synthesis" section is a great idea!
May I respectfully suggest that we post MP3 files for examples, not product specific ones?

DJ
--

Last edited by DrJustice on Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: toronto, canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ah, mosc, wonderful THANKS !

this will go into my wee knowledge bank for future reference

i will now experiment with this technique myself see what happens...

this is indeed something special about the sounds resulting from cross modulation

_________________
Spiral Recordings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DrJustice



Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2054
Location: Morokulien
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't forget that you can connect more than two oscillators. For example by chaining them ouput to input in a ring. Then you can tap the signal in many places. By carefull tweaking you can get extremely complex and pleasing sounds.

DJ
--
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: toronto, canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am intrigued..can you please elaborate on this....

DrJustice wrote:
For example by chaining them ouput to input in a ring. Then you can tap the signal in many places.
DJ
--

_________________
Spiral Recordings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DrJustice



Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2054
Location: Morokulien
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Soemething like the below may be a starting point. Some of the cv inputs could be from a keyobard or they could be static - or anything, its a modular!

Code:

  +----------------------------------------------------+
  |                                                    |
  |    +--------+      +--------+          +--------+  |
  |    |  OSC 1 |      | OSC 2  |          | OSC N  |  |
  | ..>|cv      |   ..>|cv      |       ..>|cv      |  |
  +--->|fm   out+--+-->|fm   out+--+-...-->|fm   out+--+
       +--------+  |   +---+----+  |       +--------+  |
                   |               |                   |
                 tap 1           tap 2               tap N


More complexity can be had by setting up further fm routings in interesting arrangements. Adding a bit of delay in some of the fm paths is interesting. Using low frequencies (LFO range) and perhaps some processing modules can result in interesting patterns.

Now think further, think noodles, you may know them?

DJ
--
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20736
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 158
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes X modulated LFO's are fun for noodles. Often I quantize the modulations for that, mostly in "voltage", but time quantization (with (using clocked delays) or without (using s&h's) delay)) can be used as well.

Jan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: toronto, canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

some great insights..thanks guys...just processing this
_________________
Spiral Recordings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17630
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 125
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DrJustice wrote:

May I respectfully suggest that we post MP3 files for examples, not product specific ones?


Good idea, Dr. J. Here's a composition I just did in honor of this topic.

Cross Modulation Nocturne arrow http://electro-music.com/forum/post-47047.html

I won't even say what equipment I used to keep it "not product specific". I will say that there was no delay used. This is a realtime improv made using just two socillators, two LFOs, multimode filter, one multiplier, two phase shifters and a touch of reverb.

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff

Last edited by mosc on Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:30 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the thing i like about the nord patches is that they are generally understandable as a block diagram as well as being audiable. when i post little examples,i've been using the g2 demo software (free) so as to avoid using modules that those without the hardware version can't use. i would recomned that everyone who can possibly run the demo (and i've run it on very underpowered pc's) download it, it's very useful for testing small ideas quickly.

deknow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: toronto, canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc...wow...that nocturn...stunning...and little mind-bending ...perfect way to start the day hehehe
_________________
Spiral Recordings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17630
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 125
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks, Paul. A nocturn is art for the night. I guess it should be spelled nocturnE. An aubade is a piece for the morning. I've never written one of those. In fact, I just looked it up.

A good challenge to write an aubade using cross modulation. .

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=aubade

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Dovdimus Prime



Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Posts: 664
Location: Bristol, UK
Audio files: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry to butt in! I just needed to say that this thread reads like some kind of technical conversation between Data and LaForge.

DATA: "Do you think cross-modulating the tachyon flow whilst discombobulating inverse phase frequency arrays using the fundamental wavetable output of the universe will thwart the evil Vocodions?"

DOVDER: "No. I think shooting them to death is probably the answer."

I know pseudo-science speak has been done before on this forum but I couldn't resist. Very Happy

_________________
This message was brought to you from Beyond The Grave.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Jason



Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles, CA. USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great topic.
I have always loved the sound of Cross Modulation.
It took me years to find out what it was and how to achieve it.
Finally when I purchased my Roland Jupiter-6 I found what I was looking for. It has some very serious potential especially when used in conjunction with the oscillator sync function for those looking for such things.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Uncle Krunkus
Moderator


Joined: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 4760
Location: Sydney, Australia
Audio files: 52
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just a bit of extra info on Xmodulation.
It's the classic application of chaos theory in music.
By using the output of a linear system to control the second linear system which controls the first we create very complex patterns from two very predictable sources. The relative frequencies of each will determine the likelihood of true chaotic behaviour.
Also the 2 extra frquencies produced are F1-F2 and F1+F2. The F1-F2 bit is what a theramin uses to create an audible tone from 2 Radio fequencies Wink
See ya,
Andrew

_________________
What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17630
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 125
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't want to be nit pickey but that is a bit of an oversimplification. The sum and difference frequencies are generated when you use a multiplier circuit. The frequency components from frequency modulation are more complex. The results are different when you use linear (Chowning/DX7) exponential FM (used in most modular synths). FM is so complicated at large modulation indexes that it's very difficult to get an intuitive feel for it.
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Mohoyoho



Joined: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 1633
Location: Tennessee
Audio files: 8

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just tried this on my Moog Modular V2 vst. Cool effect! I never would have thought of this. It can get really crazy. I love putting it through the step sequencer. Thanks for the tip!
_________________
Mark Mahoney
Kingsport, Tennessee
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
http://cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck2
http://www.limitedwave.com/subterraneous/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mohoyoho



Joined: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 1633
Location: Tennessee
Audio files: 8

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a Moog Modular V2 sequence using the cross modulation method that Mosc describes. You can hear the distorted warbling.


CrossModSeq.mp3
 Description:
Cross modulation sequence on Moog Modular V2

Download
 Filename:  CrossModSeq.mp3
 Filesize:  292.65 KB
 Downloaded:  933 Time(s)


_________________
Mark Mahoney
Kingsport, Tennessee
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
http://cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck2
http://www.limitedwave.com/subterraneous/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stanley Pain



Joined: Sep 02, 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Reading, UK
Audio files: 10
G2 patch files: 35

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i did this for another forum, just thought i might as well stick it in here too.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

_________________
there's no I in TEAM, so let's all act as individuals instead
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 2 [33 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use