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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
The Hague in 2005 is not Budapest in 1956.

Funny you should mention that, I have a good friend who excaped Budapest in the early 60s. One night over dinner, I was complaining about the Bush administration and all this. He laughed at me. He said when he grew up everyone knew the government was corrupt. People dealt with it as a fact of life. He said you Americans believe the society should be good and you expect truth and justice will prevail. We don't expect this and aren't so disappointed. He says living in the US is much better than communist eastern Europe, but not as different as we like to think it is. He said this quietly to make sure nobody in the restaurant overheard. Rolling Eyes

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dmosc



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

we have a different democracy in the US than the rest of the world as well. No parlament. We get single member districts with plurality rule. Basically the majority of 51% picks what they want, and 49% have absolutely no representation. The system further seperates the interests of the masses from those of the "majority" by redistricting, protecting incumbants (>98% of all congressmen up for re-election get re-elected), and a low voter turnout. They also distort political and economic issues into more devicive moral issues.

These effects, combine with single member districts with plurality rule, create a state that is more governed by finantial interests than the people. To quote some nader, we have a governmnet "by the exelons, for the enrons" (botched quote).

No government on earth is perfect, but ours, probably more than any other, is a tyrrany of the wealthy.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

This is preposterous! I am going to write my congressman and senators and ask then to remove this provision which seems senselessly provocative at best. The World Court happens to be located in The Netherlands like the UN happens to be located in the United States. I would imagine there would be a huge uproar here if China passed a law authorizing their Central Committee to invade the United States in case a Chinese solder was detained by UN peace keeping force. This act has received precious little attention in the US media.


Yes! It's downright insane. Aside from the things I already mentioned we simply can't have one nation that's above the law; especiallly with this kind of peacekeeping stuff. People should be accountable for their actions. True; the chance of this happening is indeed quite small and a more likely result is that there simply won't be any charges against americans regardless of what they might do.... I wish nations would speak out against this en-masse. The U.S. is the only current superpower but it's not larger then the rest combined. I feel the rest should point out this is out of line; frankly I feel more Americans should speak out against this because it harms the idea that the U.S. stands for justice. Basically they are siding with Milosovich in the idea that the international court holds no power and that harms everybody.

Thanks for your support.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Thanks for your support.


You're welcome. I wrote a short editorial and put it on the front page. http://electro-music.com/article.php?t=7418
It's the least I can do for The Hague.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just recently on the ‘history’ channel, I saw a documentary about chemical/biological weapons. It said, “It is estimated that Iraq has enough chemical and biological agents to kill every living thing on earth”. It showed pictures of large stainless steel vats while stating this ‘fact’. I was a little perplexed until a little latter, it referred to the Human Genome project as , ‘to be completed soon’. This was obviously made pre invasion.

I find it a little disturbing that Bush supporters everywhere (not just in the US) try to deny that a mistake was made by saying things like “we know he had them, he just hid/moved/sold them”. Yeah right.
I’m just glad my own government was not party to the ‘coalition of the willing’, mind you US warships have been banned from our ports since the 80’s.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:

US warships have been banned from our ports since the 80’s.

I didn't know that. Shocked

Since when was this policy adapted?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ban is probably the wrong word, technically they would be able to visit if they declared they had no nuclear weapons or fuel on board. The US has said that they will not confirm or deny the presence of nuclear material on these vessels (understandable I suppose) so stalemate. We don’t allow nuclear material of any kind (except for medical use) in our territory.
Most of our power is Hydro/Geothermal/Wind with a little coal/gas generation.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
Most of our power is Hydro/Geothermal/Wind with a little coal/gas generation.


And you slaughtered the Lions!!!

You come from a great country.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
Ban is probably the wrong word, technically they would be able to visit if they declared they had no nuclear weapons or fuel on board. The US has said that they will not confirm or deny the presence of nuclear material on these vessels (understandable I suppose) so stalemate. We don’t allow nuclear material of any kind (except for medical use) in our territory.
Most of our power is Hydro/Geothermal/Wind with a little coal/gas generation.


That's interesting, So the ban is realy a sort of side-effect? Still; I suppose it fits, taking a strong stance against nuclear arms nesicarily involves taking a stance agains armies that use "tactical nukes" and I think uranium core amo is quite common in the U.S. army.

Uranium core ammo is a big issue for the future, b.t.w.; even regardless of the context and the politics; however you look at it a lot of uranium core rounds were firered. Being liberated does you little good if your babies are born mutated. These factors realy weaken the peacekeeping ideology.

In any war there will be incidents with individuals that get out of line; that's known and sort of accpeted; we have courts for that. In many wars there will also be side-ways interests to be served. I don't think many western europeans thought it was a big deal when the chance was grabed and U.S. products were marketed heavily around here right after WOII. I think that's a good trade-off for everybody involved.

When the situation gets to the point where the apropriate court gets threatened and the liberated people now live in a area with quite a bit of nuclear material I think the deal becomes a little different and so I'm left to wonder about the sincerity of the resons as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rounds with depleted uranium used for the flechette is pretty much the favoured weapon against tanks and other armoured vehicles these days. The alternative to uranuim is tungsten, but there are a lot of reasons as to why uranium is "better". Deployment of such weapons does however cause serious uranium contamination. The enviromental problems are unsolvable. The use uf depleted uranium in projectile rounds should be stopped now.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, I agree. In general I think we need to have a new look at international laws such as the geneva convention. Currently there is quite a bit going on that shouldn't be allowed; we can't have "enemy combatants" or whatever they are called these days that get no process and no rights at all, we can't have countries going of and threating international courts and ammo that has side-effects like that won't do either.

I admit that the current situation does make the demand that anybody not wearing a uniform is treated as a civilian a bit outdated but Guantanamo is going too far so we need to talk calmly about some sort of compromise. Currently it's starting to look like schoolyard politics intead of mature adults.

I think we need new and clear rules to deal with the new situations and we need to have some sort of way of making people stick to those rules.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I think we need new and clear rules to deal with the new situations and we need to have some sort of way of making people stick to those rules.


Yes, maybe we can call these rules... I don't know... oh I've got it... Geneva Conventions.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen wrote:
I think we need new and clear rules to deal with the new situations and we need to have some sort of way of making people stick to those rules.


Yes, maybe we can call these rules... I don't know... oh I've got it... Geneva Conventions.


:¬)

Yes, but there are some problems with that. First of all I'm not entirely sure uranium core ammo is actually agains the geneva convention. The radioactivity is not realy a intended part of the weapon, more of a side effect. Using uranium for weight has many valid uses, for example in the tails of aircrafts.

Either way; using clusterbombs and artilery on civilian areas is clearly and blatandly in violation of the convention and I believe unmaned yet armed aircraft were used in Afghanistan which I seem to remember isn't that legal either but nobody is doing anything about it and Bush basically warned against doing anything with the "Bomb Kassen act". That's a problem.

I also have to give the Bush administration that with a war that's not realy like the classical wars (as in; it doesn't involve two rows of uniformed men lining up in front of eachother) you have to wonder wether the laws are realy that sensible anymore. Strictly speaking anybody not in a uniform that's shooting (or on a aircraft in collision cource or some such act) should be charged with atempted murder or murder in a normal court. That seems clear enough but holding formal investigations in a area that might be covered with boobytraps and that's filled with geruilia wariors within a country where there is no real effective judicial system at that moment and where throwing people into jail might well be a violation of human rights all by itself it does become decidedly tricky. It's not clear at all wether we can have soldiers, not matter how well intended, make arrests in forgein countries; we certainly can't have them handle evidence without training in that.

We can't treat them (suspected terrorists, etc) like POW's because we'd need to release them after the war and it's not even clear what the war (if there even is one) is or how we'd determine it's end. So; I have to agree with Bush that the Geneva convention doesn't realy deal with international fringe groups of terrorists and suicide bombers, of cource I'm not in favour of making up new statuses all by yourself and locking people up indefinately without trials just for being accused. So; I'd like some new sort of law and I'd like punishments for violating it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
...You kill food.
Enemies are to be dominated.
...


Actually chimps kill thier enemies. When you kill your competition it can be a double win for your DNA. I think our species can play it either way. But organized murder is clearly a deep and persistent part of our heratige. Also our rare ability to enjoy the suffering of others.

IMO if you do enjoy the suffering of your enimies or relish vengence your genes are part of the problem--so do the rest of us a favor and please off or sterilize yourself ASAP. It's our only hope.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Robert, your point of view sounds like:

Jonathan Swift wrote:
Shortly thereafter he meets a horse and comes to understand that the horses (in their language Houyhnhnm or "the perfection of nature") are the rulers and the deformed creatures ("Yahoos") are human beings in their basest form.


arrow Gulliver's Travel

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
...You kill food.
Enemies are to be dominated.
...


Actually chimps kill thier enemies. When you kill your competition it can be a double win for your DNA. I think our species can play it either way. But organized murder is clearly a deep and persistent part of our heratige. Also our rare ability to enjoy the suffering of others.

IMO if you do enjoy the suffering of your enimies or relish vengence your genes are part of the problem--so do the rest of us a favor and please off or sterilize yourself ASAP. It's our only hope.


Perhaps this one lost its context?

I can clearly relate to a dystopian view on our genes, but the issues re organized killing are obviously connected to cultural issues as well. Does the human genome reflect itself in our culture? Yes, probably but still cultural variations seems to indicate that we do have a choice.

As for the domination game, look at how the British Empire handled say China and India.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes I did take it out of context. What can I say? I am a conceptual opportunist?

elektro80 wrote:
I can clearly relate to a dystopian view on our genes, but the issues re organized killing are obviously connected to cultural issues as well. Does the human genome reflect itself in our culture? Yes, probably but still cultural variations seems to indicate that we do have a choice.


The nature of choice is problematic and it's not clear (to me at least) to what extent war is a choice. In chimps it is a response to stress on resources. In humans it may be that psychic stress is more important. No doubt culture mediates an individuals response to both kinds of stress and that propaganda can be used to manipulate it.

elektro80 wrote:
As for the domination game, look at how the British Empire handled say China and India.
Yes but China and India are abstractions. Typically domination comes down to violence or threat of violence at a very personal level.

I don't think humanity will make any progress in its war on war until we as individuals are humble enough to accept the extent to which our feeling, thinking, and actions are the product of processes not subject to reflection and to question the view of consciousness as the master of our personal psycho/emotional destiny.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, what can I say, I had a go at staying on topic - hopefully on the track of Howard´s initial threadstarter. Laughing

As for scale of conflict, you may have a point and it gets evident when you remove the personal angle and add politics. Then we are back to how the British Empire set up shop in India and China .

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
deknow wrote:
].. what Hitler did to jews, gypsies, homosexuals, catholics, etc?


..has been done to you name `em all over the place all the time. Still happens. A part of the problem is how we are accepting the demonisation of Hitler and his henchmen. Truth is, ordinary people commited these acts. I know that makes it much harder to understand, but that is how it is.


So I thought I was on topic. Wink Crying or Very sad

I seems to me that followers are enablers of leaders and that the two are co-dependant co-equals in responsibility.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

I can clearly relate to a dystopian view on our genes, but the issues re organized killing are obviously connected to cultural issues as well. Does the human genome reflect itself in our culture? Yes, probably but still cultural variations seems to indicate that we do have a choice.


A third factor might be population density and the limited nature of resources.

Obviously those interconnect; genes play a rather large role in population growth and culture modifies the nature of the struggle for resources (two men may fight over the last hamburger but it takes two countries to go to war over oil). On the other hand population density causes cultural changes (there is no need for sub-cultures without having packed cities, for example)

When I agree with Bachus about sterilisation it's population density that I'm mainly after, not the genes as such. I believe that with a big decrease of the world's population most if not all of these problems will disappear.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
IMO if you do enjoy the suffering of your enimies or relish vengence your genes are part of the problem--so do the rest of us a favor and please off or sterilize yourself ASAP. It's our only hope.


Waiting for them to sterilize themselves might not pay off. We compassionate, intelligent, sensitive, moral, and kind people should just exterminate all those other clods. Then we can have a nice peaceful world, and we can have all their stuff too. Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Channeling George now are you?[/quote]
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
bachus wrote:
IMO if you do enjoy the suffering of your enimies or relish vengence your genes are part of the problem--so do the rest of us a favor and please off or sterilize yourself ASAP. It's our only hope.


Waiting for them to sterilize themselves might not pay off. We compassionate, intelligent, sensitive, moral, and kind people should just exterminate all those other clods. Then we can have a nice peaceful world, and we can have all their stuff too. Twisted Evil


This seems like a brilliant product! Write some books, set up some websites and you can turn this into a church too. Ann Coulter, go eat some cabbage!!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
bachus wrote:
IMO if you do enjoy the suffering of your enimies or relish vengence your genes are part of the problem--so do the rest of us a favor and please off or sterilize yourself ASAP. It's our only hope.


Waiting for them to sterilize themselves might not pay off. We compassionate, intelligent, sensitive, moral, and kind people should just exterminate all those other clods. Then we can have a nice peaceful world, and we can have all their stuff too. Twisted Evil


Yes, the terrible truth is that we sometimes have to choose between being a victim or a victimizer. When those situations arise it takes great strength and courage to choose the former over the latter. But then at least we get to screw our courage to the sticking point for something decent.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My wife is fond of telling her favourite joke of all time. Do suspend pedantics for a moment.

A Communist, a Fascist and a Jew are in a coffee shop. Out of the heavens, God descends, and wishes to grant each of them one wish. The Communist looks at the Fascist and says "I want death to all Fascists!" Immediately, the Fascist retorts "I want death to all Communists!" God, of course, grants the wishes.

God looks at the Jew. The Jew looks at God and replies, "I'd like another cup of coffee?"

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