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statements by iran's president
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe the president of Iran simply shares the same inept communication skills as the US president.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"just symbolic speech", "just talking like this for local political reasons", "just inept", "nothing to worry about", "he's over the top but so are others", "don't worry, he'd be insane to do what he says", "don't worry, the people in his country would never go along with that", "don't worry, if he tried to do that the world wouldn't let him get away with it."... These are things people said about Hitler in the 1930s.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don´t think Iran right now is comparable to Hitler just because people say those things. I think it´s much more apropriate to compare the arabian states to people accused of comunism in the 60´s or strange women during the witch trials.

Isn´t Iraq expected to pay in oil for getting it´s civilian areas bombed, it´s inhabitants tortured and humiliated much like the "witches" were made to pay their own trials? Neither "WMD´s" nor ties to Alquida were found, much like no familiars could be found nor did the witches realy float but that doesn´t matter because after enough torture they confess anyway.

If anything is currently compareable to WOII it´s that people don´t seem to believe there are realy camps and that people are getting deported without trial.

Deknow; I had gotten the impression that it was planned by the U.S. to invade Iran next. If they aren´t then I´m as baffled as you are. In that case it would indeed be quite counterproductive to make those threads now. Perhaps Iran´s president has simply gone a bit funny in his head? It´s my opinion that nearly all politicians are a bit funny and I don´t see why Iran would be a exception. If Iran would turn out to have smart, sane politicians then I´d be in favour of immediately buying those like soccer players are sold; we could use them well.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I don´t think Iran right now is comparable to Hitler just because people say those things.


Of course not. These are things people said to apologize for Hitler in the 1930s (before WWII) and to apologize for the President of Iran today. The President of Iran is comparable to Hitler because he said Israel should be removed from the face of the Earth.

If history has taught us anything, it is that if someone says he is going to kill you, you should take him very seriously.

Quote:
If anything is currently compareable to WOII it´s that people don´t seem to believe there are realy camps and that people are getting deported without trial.


I condemn that too. And I condemn the treats against Den Haag by the US Congress. Fortunately, in the last case, I don't see evidence that the US government is funding terror groups to kill innocent Dutch people.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, no, they don´t need to. If I understand the news correctly the Dutch government itself is doing quite a nice job at funding terrorist groups that bomb The Hague. However, even if there is curently no evidence that the U.S. funds Dutch terrorist groups, I don´t believe that the Dutch secret service would start funding islamic terorism if it weren´t for the U.S. war on terror. That same section of the Dutch government is responcible for our phone taps, the most per head of any country in the world. They don´t manage those taps themselves; a Israelian company does.

Still, that threat was in protection of U.S. infantry, probably the people like the ones that traded the photographs of mutilated corpses for the pornography, at least those looked like some good canidates to be judged in a international court to me. Facinatingly that site apeared to be hosted in the Netherlands too...

So far for the trivia (I´m not making this stuff up).

I´m still more scared of the U.S. then of Iran. The U.S. has a far worse track record of wars (if we only considder the era in which both countries existed), has far, far more WMD´s and also anounced a willingness to use those agressively. I don´t aprove of Iran´s stance in this at all but Iran doesn´t realy worry me that much.

I predict that Iran won´t attack Israel and that the U.S. will attack Iran. That it will turn out Iran didn´t have any signifficant weapons and that there will be yet more cruelty, more violations of the Geneva convetion and that yet again the U.S. won´t be charged with any of those. I also predict that Iran will have to pay for it all and that the contracts will go to U.S. companies.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"It is tough to make predictions, especially about the future."—Yogi Berra
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Indeed it is, but some general tendencies can be observed. If you drink four beers now you'll need to go to the toilet soon. for example. That's a pritty safe prediction.

This one was somewhat less safe but it's still not as wild as "I predict that the next u.s. president will be female and that she'll mary michael jackson one year later."

In retrospect the cold war seems like a very good idea to me. War is big business so some people like it for that. I was just thinking that it'd be great if those people could make their cash without anyone having to die for it. Then it ocured to me that the cold war was just that, in a way..

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Israel Dismantles: World's Problems End...
Propaganda Department wrote:

"It's not every day when the French, the Germans, Muslims, Communists, Nazis, Arabs, Socialists, and the United Nations agree on things, so when they do, it's obvious that they must be correct."

Persistent rhetoric coming from concerned progressive critics worldwide has finally convinced Israeli officials that the state of Israel has no moral right to exist. "That's it," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon explained at a press conference. "We are dismantling the Nation of Israel. I'm leaving for Poland next week."

"My cabinet and I had long discussions about world troubles, and we concluded that our critics are right - all the troubles can be traced back to us. So, in order to resolve these issues, we felt it would be best to extend our withdrawal beyond Gaza to include the West Bank and Israel proper," Sharon said. "The Gaza pullout was only a test, and the ensuing waves of peace and brotherhood it had triggered in Palestine and beyond, encouraged us to disband altogether. Without us here, people of the world will finally be able, once again, to live in permanent harmony and understanding - just like they all did before Israel's founding nearly sixty years ago."

~


Persistent rhetoric coming from progressive critics has convinced Israeli officials that the state of Israel has no moral right to exist.


Israel: Illegal settlers receive instructions to pack their bags and move to the countries of their parents and grandparents.


Iran: With the Zionist entity out of the way, Iranian mullahs tone down their violent rhetoric, dismantle their nuclear program, and stop funding Hezbollah and other terrorist groups."


Bin Laden: "Israel was the only reason why we bombed New York, Paris, London, Bali, Riyadh, Thailand, Kashmir, Russia, Morocco, Nigeria, India, and the Philippines. But now all our operations will cease."


Palestinian President Abu Mazen: "We believe that our future is in limited government. We will bring to fruition all the programs started in refugee camps, such as our breakthroughs in medicine, education, applied and theoretical sciences, nanotechnology, and space exploration."


Bush no longer has to obey the Zionist lobby: "We will immediately withdraw all American troops from Iraq, suspend their new constitution, and halt all construction of schools and hospitals."


Kofi Annan: "Without Israel to condemn, what resolutions could we possibly pass? We're finished!"


Cindy Sheehan: "Thank goodness this is over and I can now disappear into obscurity."


Kim Jung-il: "Now that I no longer have to waste my days worrying about Israel, I had time to read Atlas Shrugged and suddenly realized what an idiot I've been all these years."
From Russia to Morocco to Yemen to France, countries are anticipating the arrival of Israelis. In Moscow, an enormous banner was erected that read "Welcome Home, Jews." and erstwhile presidential candidate Vladimir Zhirinovsky exclaimed, "I'm going to bake a huge batch of cookies for this homecoming!" And in cities throughout Germany, joyous "Judenfests" were ubiquitous, as local citizens were arranging festivals to celebrate the Jewish arrival. German foreign minister Joschka Fischer indicated that, "For some reason, the Jewish presence in Germany is low by historical standards; many of our citizens under the age of 70 have never even met a Jew. In addition to curing the world's problems, the dismantling of Israel will give our people the opportunity to achieve their main wish in life - to live with Jews."

Similarly, the new Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has kicked off a popular "Iran-loves-Jews" campaign that will include a sensitive re-writing of the laws to accommodate religions other than Islam. He explained, "With the Zionist entity out of the way, the Iranian government will tone down its violent and threatening rhetoric, dismantle its nuclear program, and stop funding Hezbollah and other terrorist groups. As a matter of fact, I might even resign my position and award the presidency to someone else. Do you think Schwarzenegger is available?"

A spokesperson for Hezbollah stated that Iran's proposal wouldn't matter. "We don't need the funding because we no longer have any reason to exist. We disposed of our weapons, and will now re-focus on opening a chain of pizzerias. You just can't get decent pizza around here, and we're going to change that."

He was joined by a former high-ranking member of Hamas: "Yeah, we also pretty much accomplished what we wanted. We'll get together for reunions now and then, but otherwise, we'll just settle down into normal lifestyles. You know... mortgage, house, bowling, PTA meetings..."

Al Qaeda has also released a statement that read: "As the entire world knows, the Zionist presence in our Holy Palestine has been the only reason for our existence. This is why we attacked the World Trade Center and why we murdered Americans in Iraq. It's why we bombed Paris, London, and Bali, why we exploded buildings in Saudi Arabia, and why we enabled murders and terrorist activities in Thailand, Kashmir, Russia, Morocco, Nigeria, India, and the Philippines. But now, with Palestine returned to our brothers, all operations will cease. This is effective immediately and is irrevocable. We will now form The International Peace Corps and of course pay reparations to the non-Israelis who we murdered."

In the new country of Palestine, there are already signs of promise. President Abu Mazen elaborated, "We're adopting the American Constitution as our legal model. We believe that our future is in limited government; free markets, rule of law, respect for contracts and individual rights. And by attracting foreign investment, our highly educated and motivated workforce will soon become the most affluent in the region. In our own country, we will bring to fruition all the programs that we started in refugee camps, such as our breakthroughs in medicine, education, applied and theoretical sciences, nanotechnology, and space exploration."

When asked why these breakthroughs were not previously revealed, he replied, "Yassir always wanted an open and liberal society that encouraged free thought, free expression, and academic exploration, but it was impossible with the Zionist enemy next door. But now, our pent-up contributions in science and the humanities will finally be released. With this release of pressure, our accomplishments will explode faster than our martyrs used to!"

But most significantly, the end of Israel will have a large impact on United States policy. In an earlier press conference, President Bush had these words:

"As we all know, the only reason for our toppling of Saddam Hussein was to obey my superiors, the well-funded Zionist lobby, without understanding why. However, as Israel no longer exists, we will immediately withdraw all American troops from Iraq, suspend their new constitution, and halt all construction of schools and hospitals. But most importantly, we will be returning Saddam Hussein to his presidency, and pay him FEMA reparations for the Israeli-ordered murder of his sons.

"Furthermore, I want to extend an invitation to my colleague and close personal friend, Jacques Chirac, to rebuild French nuclear reactors in Iraq. Saddam Hussein needs nuclear weapons, and this time, the Israelis will not be around to destroy them.

"To our friend Saddam Hussein, America says, 'Can you forgive us?' Israel lied, we lied, I lied, and everyone died. We know that it was because of Israel that you praised the September 11th attacks, and that you sheltered terrorists, and that you (rightfully) wanted nuclear weapons, and that you gassed the Kurds, and buried thousands in mass graves. Certainly, any dictator who blatantly expresses delight at watching Americans die, has a track record of invading other countries, uses chemical weapons, and actively seeks nuclear weapons could never in any way be even a remote threat to the United States. And now, with Israel out of the way, we are proud to welcome President Saddam Hussein back into our family of nations."

One particular family of nations is very concerned, "With Israel gone, there's nothing left for us to do," says a United Nations staffer. "Since the world's conflicts will be over, we're worried that they won't need us any more." An anonymous U.N. delegate shared his concern: "I've even heard that they considered converting the U.N. building into condominiums, but there are too many cockroaches. Why would that matter? In my country, we pay a premium to live with cockroaches!"

The most important opinion came from the mourning Cindy Sheehan, with a nation hanging onto her every pearl of maternal insight: "Thank goodness this is over and I can now disappear into obscurity. And...wait a minute...is that my son speaking? Yes it is! He is saying,"Mother...mother...I am so grateful that Israel no longer exists! Mother, I am so happy that no other helpless children, like myself, will ever die in wars again!"

A large group of neo-Nazis who happened to be visiting Ms. Sheehan at the moment seemed upbeat: "With Israel gone, we'll be shutting down our web sites and closing meeting centers. Now that our job is done, you'll never hear from us again."

David Duke agreed. Contacted at his home, he said that he was leaving politics. "My life's work is finished; no more politics for me. I'm taking down my web site, too. Think I'll quietly live out my days in front of the TV."

And finally, Kim Jung-il of North Korea has promised to free his nation. "Whatever it takes," he said. "Now that I no longer have to waste my days worrying about Israel, I had time to read Atlas Shrugged and suddenly realized what an idiot I've been all these years. Do you think South Koreans would mind if we dismantle the border and join forces in generating capitalist wealth?"





Shamelessly stolen from: http://www.thepeoplescube.com/red/topic-307.html
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Let's get it all straight.

I'm all for non-practicing and pacifist Jews (the ones that take their texts literally and act acording should be locked up as the dangerous criminals and rasists they are, together with Christians that live that way, fortunatly there don't seem to be too many of those. Flatening churches is not acceptable behaviour in a modern civilisation, if you hear voices that tell you to do so then you should be treated and society needs to be protected from you untill you are.)

I'm very much in favour of everybody having a place to live.

I'm strongly against the militant side of Israel though I don't considder them nearly as dangerous as the U.S..

Personally if I lived in that area, whatever you call it, I'd move out of there as soon as possible. Moving to Australia or New Zealand would seem like a especially sensible thing to do at that point.

There is a huge difference between the religious state Israel and the actual geographical location, just like there are huge differences between anti-semitism and being highly critical of Israelian politics.

This whole "armagedon any day now" thing sounds kinda exciting but I hope it can wait untill I release at least two more records.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...this begs the question:

what to do with those that take kassen's texts literally and act accordingly?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not aware of encouraging anybody to do anything that's forbidden, either in the Netherlands or in the U.S. or in Scandinavia (where the servers are).

I certainly never told anyone to flaten any churches or wage wars. Admittedly I once encouraged a person to stone another but that person was a Christian who was trying to convert me and I only explained to him that he should stone me since that's what his book told him. I actually handed him a brick that happened to be lying around. He diclined. I told him that if he was right then he should go to hell for failing to obey the bible. I doubt he ever realy read it, I quoted Exodus to him (to the letter), he claimed that passage was from Leviticus, I looked it up at home to be sure and I was right.

I remember when I bought my bible. I was in a second hand bookstore and a couple overheard a friend and me looking for a bilbe. They interupted in our conversation to point out a especially nice copy, then expressed delight at my intentions to buy one. They were quite surprised when it turned out I was planning to read it. "all of it?" they asked quite shocked "yes, i want to know what's in it". I'd say they walked away in disbelief but fear that would be taken as a word-joke.


If there is one book that calls for mass murder, for genocide, for trading slaves and whole host of terrible things in adition to hatred yet gets excused for being "just symbolical" and "not meant to be taken literally" then it's the old testament. Far more copies were printed of that then of Mein Kampf. If we are going to compare Iran's prime minister's expressions to those of pre-WOII Hitler then surely we must do the same with the old testament. The large difference is that the first two are calling for the extermination of all Jews while the last calls for the extermination of all non-Jews. Why non-Jewish Chrstians would beleive such a thing is utterly beyond me but they don't seem to have any trouble picturing Christ as blue eyed and blond either.

Anyway I place the line there much like I place it with Iran. As long as they don't actually do it and just think it should be done at some indeterminate time in some abstract sense then I don't think they cause all that much harm. Practically speaking it seems that to the law being religious somehow counts as a partial excuse. Three years ago (I think) two Dutch Christian women killed a young child. They killed it by jumping up and down it's belly trying to exorsise a evil sprit. They only got two years in prison for that because of the religious reason. So, Deknow, to answer your question. people that believe what I say, as opposed to what the bible says, should in my opion be made judge or lawyer or legislator. Think of the childeren!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
...this begs the question:

what to do with those that take kassen's texts literally and act accordingly?

deknow


Dunno.. On the other hand there is a certain popular book ( at least in Texas ) that is basically all into like chopping off your enemies foreskins and stuff like that. And Kassen isn´t quite into the foreskin biz yet. At least Kassen has posted very few posts about foreskins.

Safe to assume:

Foreskins - God 10 - Kassen 0
Humour - God 0 - Kassen 10

?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2005/12/14/283466.html

Iran Leader Escalates Holocaust Rhetoric
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer
2 hours ago

TEHRAN, Iran - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad escalated his anti-Israeli rhetoric Wednesday, calling the Holocaust a "myth" used by Europeans to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets," Ahmadinejad told thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan.

His remarks drew swift condemnation from Israel, Germany and the European Commission. Germany said the remarks would affect upcoming negotiations over Iran's nuclear program.

Ahmadinejad last week questioned whether the Nazi destruction of 6 million European Jews during World War II occurred and said Israel should be moved to Europe. He also provoked an international outcry in October when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

But Wednesday was the first time he publicly denied the Holocaust. Touring southeast Iran, Ahmadinejad said that if Europeans insist the Holocaust happened, then they are responsible and should pay the price.

"If you committed this big crime, then why should the oppressed Palestinian nation pay the price?" Ahmadinejad asked rhetorically.

"This is our proposal: if you committed the crime, then give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country," he said, developing a theme he raised in Saudi Arabia last week.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier called the remarks "shocking and unacceptable." He said the German government had summoned the Iranian charge d'affaires to make "unmistakably clear" its displeasure.

"I cannot hide the fact that this weighs on bilateral relations and on the chances for the negotiation process, the so-called nuclear dossier," Steinmeier said, referring to European talks with Iran on its nuclear program.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said: "The repeated outrageous remarks of the Iranian president show clearly the mind-set of the ruling clique in Tehran and indicate clearly the extremist policy goals of the regime.

"The combination of fanatical ideology, a warped sense of reality and nuclear weapons is a combination that no one in the international community can accept," Regev added, referring to allegations that Iran is developing nuclear bombs.

In Brussels, Belgium, European Commission spokeswoman Emma Udwin said the president's comments were "completely unacceptable."

"We feel very strongly that Iran is damaging its own interests with these kind of remarks," she said.

Ahmadinejad said the West had harmed Muslims, invaded their countries and plundered their wealth.

"If your civilization consists of aggression, making oppressed people homeless, suffocating the voices of justice and bringing poverty to a majority of the world's people, we say loudly that we hate your hollow civilization," he said.

Ahmadinejad has been unapologetic about taking Iran on a more openly defiant course, insisting on Iran's right to develop its nuclear program _ which it insists is peaceful _ and often using rhetoric reminiscent of the 1980s heyday of the Islamic Revolution.

The president's views sharply conflict with those of predecessor Mohammad Khatami, a moderate who used to call for dialogue among civilizations and promoted a low-key understanding with the United States that stopped short of diplomatic relations.

Inside Iran, Ahmadinejad's remarks have been criticized by some of his conservative allies, who fear he is hurting the country's image. Moderate Iranians have called on the ruling Islamic establishment to rein in the president.

But Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the ultimate say, has backed Ahmadinejad's calls for Israel's elimination.

Ahmadinejad criticized the United States for refusing to sell Iran spare parts for its civilian planes as part of its long-standing embargo against the country.

Iran has suffered a series of plane accidents _ most recently on Dec. 6, when an aging U.S.-made military transport plane crashed into a tall building in Tehran, killing 115 people. Iranian officials have blamed Washington for the crashes, saying they are partly caused by the difficulty in obtaining spare parts.

"No country is authorized to impose spare-part sanctions against another country. Nothing can justify this," Ahmadinejad said Wednesday.

Ahmadinejad said the denial of spare parts was a reason why Iran would not trust Western promises to give it nuclear fuel. The country is currently at loggerheads with the West over its insistence on enriching uranium to fuel its first nuclear reactor, which is due to start generating electricity next year.

The Europeans, with U.S. backing, do not trust Iran to have its own enrichment process since highly enriched uranium can be used for nuclear warheads. Europe has offered to sell enriched uranium for the reactor, but Iran has rejected this.

The United States is pushing to have Iran referred to the U.N. Security Council, where it could face sanctions for violating a nuclear arms control treaty.

Ahmadinejad said that if Iran gave in on the nuclear dispute, there was no guarantee the West might not refuse to sell nuclear fuel in the future.

"I assure you that we won't step back one inch from our nuclear rights," the president told the crowd, drawing chants of "Death to America!"

Iran is due to resume negotiations on the nuclear issue with envoys from Britain, France and Germany starting Dec. 21 in Vienna, Austria.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As I understand it, Ahmadinejad has never travelled outside of Iran. All he knows is the Radical Islamic nonsense. It's a shame when someone like this gets to run a country. Good thing he doesn't have nuclear weapons yet. I feel sorry for the Iranians who have to live in a country ruled by these thugs. I know many people living in the US that have fled from Iran. They are so exasperated by what's going on there that they prefer to be called Persians instead of Iranians.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

New member here
Very refreshing to see musicians engaged in important topics like this , sometimes we get too self involved.

I am 100 % with Kassen on this .

I obviously do not agree with Iran's president , but if i were a muslim in that area and had to live with this Israeli goverment i'd propably share the same feelings.
Unfortunately Europe and the U.S took a wounded child at the end of wwII
and turned it into a spoiled ,greedy beast .

It's obvious that the whole situation stems from the palestinian issue and what has followed since .
The holocaust is irrelevant in this discussion , since i don't think that anyone could blame the muslims of middle east with either the intention or any action on that matter .

It is however true that this parts of the world regardless of their own problems have been mistreated repeatedly by the British , the russians , the Americans and for evident economic reasons

If you look in the 80's the only western country officially supporting the fair palestinian claim was Greece and although i am proud of it , we all know how much gravity a support like this has (none).

Even if you look at little things , like european sport tournaments or music contests , e.t.c you will always find israel participating but no middle east country .
These things seem minor for us until one realises there are more profound reasons for such omissions.Why do we regard israel connected to europe and not lebanon for example ?

Now let's take a look at the stupidity of the whole issue after the september 11
The U.S attacks the technologically evolved Aghganistan and after managing to conquer this mighty Beast , attacks the ever posing threat of Irak .After that they are constantly talking about the dangerous Iran.
In the mean time mathematic calculations reveal a score of 2000 americans vs 500.000 muslims dead.

From simple mathematics we know that Σ (human life value) = (number of people) * (petrol consumption) from which we get the terrifying analogy of one billion Americans dead for every Muslim.

If you combine this with the information that Terrorist leaders have been trained by C.I.A (Something like the cisco certificate for network engineers) we now have a legitimate reason to Panic .

The Free world is under attack by this extraterrestial superpower formed by vicious pastrami eaters !!!

The brave western mind however is not easily trapped in a oneway street.
Following the Grand tradition of our past we find an ingenious solution .

No enemy, however profound could foresee this .

We willingly hand the protection of everything we hold sacred to the only country in this world that has actually used a mass destruction weapon (clever , clever , clever) .

So even if the enemy intends to build this weapon , even if he obtain's at some point the technology to do so , even if he finally builds one , we still have the advantage of having an ally , that actually has the nerve to drop one .

So with this well thought policy , regarding also the little things that i've mentioned before we have basically criminalized the Whole middle east area (apart from the poor Israelians) , we discriminate against immigrants from that countries and of course we have secured enough petrol for the U.S and the U.k to be happy.

But do you really think that middle east countries are a threat for our 'Free world ' ?

If one takes a look at the new antiterror laws in U.S and Europe , it seems that our profound leaders pose this threat .

After all i didn't see any muslim suggesting that we should arrest citizens and keep them indefinitely with no charges , tap telephones , kill innocent suspects (the british paradigma) , abduct citizens e.t.c

I have no preference between the Iranian president and George Bush ,
both are people that i would prefer to cut my hand before voting them
but isn't it true that president Bush also had never travelled outside U.S before he became one ?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

peripatitis wrote:

After all i didn't see any muslim suggesting that we should arrest citizens and keep them indefinitely with no charges , tap telephones , kill innocent suspects (the british paradigma) , abduct citizens e.t.c


Well, some did. There were some rather unpleasant cases of that in various countries in the recent past. I think muslims are a lot like Americans, germans and Jews in that many are wonderfull compasionate people and that some are utter bastards.

We can't go about praising all Muslims just because some of them are being put in camps without trial and nearly all of them are being blamed for every bad thing by opurtunists claiming to be democratically elected.

I like my music monotonous, history could do with a little more development.
;¬)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I think muslims are a lot like Americans, germans and Jews in that many are wonderfull compasionate people and that some are utter bastards.


yes, of course we all think that germans are nazi's, jews are secretly controlling the world and conspired to kill jesus, and americans are the evil empire looking to eradicate muslims from the face of the earth. it is incumbant on individuals from those groups to prove themselves innocent of such things before we accept them into the brotherhood of man that is centered in the hague.

what a load of crap kassen. if you had said, "i think muslims are a lot like any group on the planet in that many are cool and many suck" i would agree with you 100%, by singling out groups that well known negative stereotypes you have shown that you believe them to some extent. unless i'm misunderstanding you (which is possible, in which case i apoligize), i find such views disgusting....perhaps we can start a new master race based on those in the hague? much better than german stock (well, at least superiour).

Quote:
nearly all of them [mulsims] are being blamed for every bad thing by opurtunists claiming to be democratically elected.

can you give even one example of this?

deknow
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:

what a load of crap kassen. if you had said, "i think muslims are a lot like any group on the planet in that many are cool and many suck" i would agree with you 100%, by singling out groups that well known negative stereotypes you have shown that you believe them to some extent.


No, I don't beleive them at all. In fact I have close friends in all those groups and therefore know that there is a huge difference between the individual and the group. With germany it's a little less actual but many Americans I met in the recent past were very quick to stress the difference between U.S. forgein politics and their personal opinion on the world. The same, b.t.w. holds true for some of my Jewish friends in relation to Israel's politics. I was reacting speciffically here to Peripatitis claim that he (or she as the case may well be) didn't see any muslims take certain actions. To that I have to say that in the recent past some governments claiming to be founded on religious texts did exactly those things. Sorry if this was unclear.

Quote:
nearly all of them [mulsims] are being blamed for every bad thing by opurtunists claiming to be democratically elected.

can you give even one example of this?

deknow[/quote]

Yes, absolutely. Come to The Hague, we'll go into the innert city on a thursday night. You can see how groups of "white" people will be left alone by the omnipresent police and how any group of five or more people that look like they might come from a middle easter background will be adressed by the police as soon as they stand still. We'll stand there with a few western-looking people on a square and you'll observe how groups of nonwestern looking people doing the exact same will be treated very differently and quite hostile. That's one very clear and physical example I could show to you right now; no need for statistics, translations or analysis of the media. In the recent past one rotterdam (I think, could bve Amsterdam) woman had to get a court order to get the police to stop harasing her because of her looks. There have also been numerous complaints that anybody who looks of Marocan ancestry is being stoped on a regular basis by the police for "i.d. checks". This is becoming a severe problem. Personally I suspect that the Dutch secret service in suplying a radical Musilim fraction around here with handgranades (yes, they did that) was actually a atempt at creating a reichtag sort of scenario. That's not some abstract theoretical event; this happened half a block away from my house.

None of this is backed by the Dutch people, at least not as a majority. The Dutch in general don't believe in the "war on terror" at all and statistics showed that a large majority of the Dutch were actually embaraced by our prime minister meeting with Bush. The government is off entirely on it's own in this, it's even involved with the current occupation of Iraq.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Let us try to be cool and as respectful as possible.

Yes, the Americans and Dutch don't have all that stellar a record of respecting foreign cultures and living in peace with others. Much of the beautiful architecture in Den Haag was built with profits from the slave trade to America. None of us have all that clean a history.

Still, I love Den Haag and would speak out if some government started making treats about removing it from the face of the Earth. I have done that on the front page of this site. I did this becasue a member from Den Haag brought it to my attention that the US governement has a law authorizing an envasion under certain circumstances. I do that and I still love America.

I love Israel too. Not that I condone every action of the Israeli government, but I certainly think Israel deserves to exist, as much as Holland, the USA, or Iran.

Iran is a great and horrible country too.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, Mosc, that's basically what I meant. Israel is a particularly complicated example. When one says "america" one may refer to the physical place, to the rather remarkable culture with it's many facets or to the major player in the world's politics. It' s become clear to me that those are very different things and even within all three fields there are huge areas that hardly seem linked at all to the casual eye. With Israel you get all of those and on top of that a large amount of religious conotations.

This can get very confusing very quickly. I know this from personal experience. "the Hague" as a word in Dutch often gets used to indicate politics in general; "The Hague has no idea what the people feel". When me and my friends use it it generally refers to the The Hague underground electro scene and is understood to also include people in -say- Gothenburg; "The Hague rocks the planet".

It's regretable that this gets so confusing but perhaps it's even more regretable that some fractions are activily making it all confusing in order to further their own political goals. In my own opinion some people that are advancing the beauty of Rotterdam architecture as a example of the superiority of Dutch culture would do well to visit Istanbull. That's the clearest example I can think of but I fear it requires seeing both Rotterdam and Istanbull to fully apreceate.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps i was misunderstood , i did not say that these antidemocratic behaviours are foreign to the muslims , i just stated the obvious that responsible for these anti-terror law's are the political leaders and the citizens of these countries.

Refering specifically to the British example (since i was living there at the time ) i was socked to find that the public couldn't care less !

In fact the 'riot' concering the fox hunt (a few months earlier) was ten times the one oposing the antiterror law (and i am talking about the period before the london bombings).

So my argument is that the 'free world ' is endangered only by it's own inhabitants.

As for the U.S external policy i think it's evident for any intelligent man that it has secured at least 3 decades of terrorism and bloodshed.

Or does anyone out there believe that the thousands inoccent muslims that died because of this policy will push in the direction of mutual understanding and Respect ?

Of course U.S is a superpower and as such they are neither better or worse than the ones before them.
What is annoying is this obsesiveness to get 'allies' where they don't exist .
In Greece for example 99% of the public was from the beggining against the war in Aghganistan and in Irak.
This doesn't mean that we hate the americans or that we do not sympathise with the 9-11 , however there is this ridiculus constant pressure from the Bush administration for us to get involved (send troops ,amunition e.t.c).
This is at least disrespectful to the Greek public and insulting to our democratic way of life.

The way i see it U.S is trying to project a problem of their own to the rest of the world.

Kassen : i am suprised to hear this concerning the Dutch police !
i've never noticed such a behaviour in the Hague and i always thought that dutch people were quite open to different ethnicities .
By the way i am a he
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

peripatitis wrote:

Kassen : i am suprised to hear this concerning the Dutch police !
i've never noticed such a behaviour in the Hague and i always thought that dutch people were quite open to different ethnicities.

gee...do you guys live in the same city or what (a different dimension maybe Shocked )

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
No, I don't beleive them at all. In fact I have close friends in all those groups and therefore know that there is a huge difference between the individual and the group.

...that's hardly a revelation kassen. what i don't get is why you are so quick to make a comparison between muslims, jews, germans, and americans while leaving yourself (or "your group") out of it. are dutch differant? because the netherlands has a constituion that doesn't mention "god" it is a superiour nation? are some dutch not compasionate and some of them not bastards? this seems such a universal concept (that individuals differ from groups, and that in any large group people of all kinds can be found), that i don't know why it was necessary (or even correct) to single out these groups at all to make your point...especially as you are so critical of the actions of those in governement and law enforcement in your own country......you make it a "they (americans, jews, germans, muslims) are similar" argument rather than a "we are similar" one. i'm not trying to be politcally correct here. if (in amercia) i said, "italians are just like african americans and puerto ricans....some are good people, and some are theives" it would be seen (correctly, i think) as a racist attitude.....it is of course "correct", but woefully incomplete (as it's true of every definable group of any reasonable size). i guess i just don't see what you are getting at.

your stories of police harrasment are of course disturbing, but unless police officers are elected in the hague, this does not support your claim that:
Quote:
nearly all of them [mulsims] are being blamed for every bad thing by opurtunists claiming to be democratically elected.


...i thought you were implying that elected officials in democratic countries were speaking publically and blaming all muslims for the world's problems.

deknow
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:

...that's hardly a revelation kassen. what i don't get is why you are so quick to make a comparison between muslims, jews, germans, and americans while leaving yourself (or "your group") out of it. are dutch differant?


Well, I wouldn't see "the dutch" as my group at all. I mentioned the groups I mentioned because they were somehow related to the previous discussion. Had that discussion also touched on for example trading slaves then I would've had no hesitations about including the Dutch and the Portugese. I object to the way one gets a nationality in the same way some fractions of Christianity object to baptism at birth; that way you can't be expected to make a concious choice and by extention can't be expected to be held responcible. I would in fact be very happy to get rid of my nationality but the problem is that that holds practical drawbacks and no real advantages.

I do however object to the idea of me being a part of "the Dutch"; I hardly share any of their culture at all. The only thing I have in comon with the majority of the Dutch is that we live in the same country.


Quote:

because the netherlands has a constituion that doesn't mention "god" it is a superiour nation?


Strawman and a particularly bad one too; the Dutch constiution to the best of my knowledge does mention "god" (lowercase if you wish). I think the section on throne succession demands that the king/queen is affiliated with a Dutch form of protestantism. I do think that that section counts as a negative side to the Netherlands as a country. Both hereditary rulership (even if just in a symbolical sense) and merging state and church are quite objectionable to me.

I could look up the exact paragraphs for you but the Dutch consitution is no fun at all to read and translation would in all likelyhood be a bitch so I'd realy prefer it if you'd take my word here.

Quote:

are some dutch not compasionate and some of them not bastards?


Absolutely. In fact I think it's typical of the Dutch national spirit to be both at the same time. The typical Dutchman seems compasionate only because he simply doesn't care.It might for example seem that the Dutch would be in favour of allowing the use of softdrugs and gay mariage. The truth is closer to them not caring about who smokes what or who fucks whom, as long as this is done in private (read; away from them).

Quote:

this seems such a universal concept (that individuals differ from groups, and that in any large group people of all kinds can be found), that i don't know why it was necessary (or even correct) to single out these groups at all to make your point...especially as you are so critical of the actions of those in governement and law enforcement in your own country......you make it a "they (americans, jews, germans, muslims) are similar" argument rather than a "we are similar" one. i'm not trying to be politcally correct here. if (in amercia) i said, "italians are just like african americans and puerto ricans....some are good people, and some are theives" it would be seen (correctly, i think) as a racist attitude.....it is of course "correct", but woefully incomplete (as it's true of every definable group of any reasonable size). i guess i just don't see what you are getting at.


Yes, I see where that comes from and you are right; I hope I explained where that phrase came from above. Once again I'm sorry that was unclear.


Quote:

your stories of police harrasment are of course disturbing, but unless police officers are elected in the hague, this does not support your claim that:
Quote:
nearly all of them [mulsims] are being blamed for every bad thing by opurtunists claiming to be democratically elected.



Ok, yes, you are right there though I would say that the behaviour of the police tends to reflect the position of their employers. What we are currently seeing here is that though in the Netherlands crime has been decreasing for years a shift in how the media works (more populist and more commercial) has increased the media emphasis on crime, particularly violent crime. This has led to increased feelings of insecurity in many Dutch and a demand on politicians for increased police funding. This was slowly going on for a few years before the 11 sept. situation and since then this abstract thread of danger and particularly this lucrative source of insecurity has been projected on the Dutch Muslims.

If you now remember my comaprision to the Reikstag situation above you may see why I hinted at Germany in that by now infamous list of four groups. I was trying to hint there to some speciffic events in the early 1940's, certainly not to the average "man on the street" in Germany right now.

Quote:

...i thought you were implying that elected officials in democratic countries were speaking publically and blaming all muslims for the world's problems.


Well, perhaps that's too strong to put like that, but I do think that many elected officials in various countries, including yours and mine are trying to use a rather abstract thread that's supposed to be closely linked to the Islamic faith to cover up (and distract from) the more serious problems affecting those countries.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Deknow;

To short it all out; I don't think we disagree on the core of these points at all, what we have here is a slight misunderstanding over some aparently unclear phrasings of mine

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