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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Variation changes with note # (good for Rs7000+g2 setup)
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dasz



Joined: Oct 16, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Variation changes with note # (good for Rs7000+g2 setup) Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Folks,

I'm back ...

I had a breakthrough this weekend.. you see my new RS7000's favorite record mode is of course grid mode, but this is limited to note data entry only. I have wanted to record my variation switching in a grid environment, while at the same time being able to trigger notes in the same track (slot), so I slapped 8 note detectors (c-1 to g-1) to output cc#70 on the current slot, changed the performance settings for this slot (g#1 to 127) and voila the magic was happening ... big phew for me

... notes and variation change bliss galore... it is a strange feeling to firgure out gear after you're so used to a limitless machine like the Nord ... a rather difficult, yet eventually rewarding (thanks to the midi modules in the G2) adventrure...

Now that I think of it, it is a nice feature to map a note number to cc#70 mapping.. every note in a sequence could play a different variation ... I guess this isn't very useful for most people, but anyone who has an RS7000 and a G2 this may be handy ... frequent variation changes are fun and when practised, allow you to recompose you tracks (esp when your patch has sequencers)... the rs7000 has this great groove grid feature where you can swing each step of a sequence (including swing, note offset, gate offset, velocity offset and more), and using this with varation changes has surfaced some amazing results ... too much fun ...

Kassen, I once again appologize for blowing my lid ... Sorry, dude ...
/Dasz

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's ok, I'll get to your PM next but reading your PM made me understand.

How about the following strategy.

If we'd take some paralel synced sequencers, all running in the same time, we'd multiplex between those based on incomming notes. That would give you a custom "sequencer memory" that could theorettically hold more then 8 variations. sending a "last note" from a keyboard module to a S&H triggered by the clock reset and sending the result of that to this multiplexer would only switch the parterns at the next patern start, int he same way as Live or grooveboxes do.

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dasz



Joined: Oct 16, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Kassen,

I know the trick you're talking about. I use multiplexers to provide more sequencer memories using the S/H module with a clock divider to sync the variation changes.

My prolbem I have all these pretty much ready patches (that I did before I got the RS) which I wish to reuse with minimal modifications. These patches rely on note # for transposition and variation changes (typically tweaked live by me) ...

Now I wish to use the RS as a controller for both transposition and variation changes ... The limitation in the RS's grid mode (to note # only) forced this solution ...

but this solution is far from perfect, as I discovered once I turned to osc Keyb pitch tracking to On and the ADSR kb on as well ... even though the performance mode tells slot A to ignore anything below g#-1, it's still affecting anything with KB or KeyB and the Kybaord module keeps ignoring this rule .. I'm going to log this as a bug to Clavia ...

I'm not going to get upset ...
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's the prf2 which is causing all sorts of grief... I wish to isolate the 1st 8 notes of the slot A for variation changes and the rest of Slot A for playing the slots (via keyboard or remotely) ... no cross-triggers from the other "zone" which is what is happening , can you help (Kassen your feedback is very welcome here)

Even after adding a NoteZone module I had issues (see jpg - "Major Error" after adding a note zone module and setting the setting as you see in the jpg -- I use local on fyi).

Oh happy day (as I may no longer need to be a s/w developer but a UI designer soon!!!),
/Dasz


major error while changing keyzone.jpg
 Description:
What gets you a major error when tweaking note zone ... help?
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major error while changing keyzone.jpg



Note2VarChange&4SlotKeyb.prf2
 Description:
The prf without independant variation tigg via notes c-1 to g-1 and normal key response above then (see prf2 settings) ... help?

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 Filename:  Note2VarChange&4SlotKeyb.prf2
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Unfed



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

did you previously use the G2 itself to send variation changes (or in this case note #s) to itself from another slot before picking up the RS7000? one thing i've been doing lately is using slot D, setting it up with three 4-bar sequencers to control variation changes in the other slots. i'll leave the first variation in each patch 'silent' so that i can program rests from the sequencers in slot D. this gives several ways to 'cut' between different rhythmic patches or can be used as a primitive 'wave-sequencer' with other patches, among other things. this has its ups and downs, it'd probably be nice to trigger variation changes from an external sequencer.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I feel your pain, Dasz. I had a run in with a similar matter some months ago. I was over at Smackos's place and he was complaining about the lack of a chord memory on the G2. So, I set out to create one for him, the idea was that you'd puch one of the interface buttons, hit a chord and after that you'd be able to play the root of that chord monophonically and the G2 would play the chord. I ended up calling Rob over that one witha major headache. Rob said that generally it's wiser to just not send midi to the slot where it's being generated. There are some problems there. I'm not so sure I agree with the idea that every slot should have one and only one midi channel. More sensible and versatile to me seems the idea that keyboard modules would have a midi channel and that CC's would be left to just stroll around on their own. That's what Tassman does but that changes the border of the poly area relative to the editor windows and comes with it's own set of headaches.

Polyphony hasn't realy changed since the 60's, I think we generally asume this is because it didn't need to be but I'm starting to suspect it's realy because nobody dares to touch it!

If I were you I'd start looking at the problem as a performance problem and not as a patch one and get all midi that controlls slot A as far away from slot A as possible, you have all you need to conditionally translate between MIDI channels at the expense of latency (which doesn't realy matter if we quantise to the patern-start anyway). I'd have a look at it for you because it's a rather interesting problem but of cource the demo doesn't like such experiments.

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dasz



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfed and Kassen,

The variation changes on this slot (A) do work ok (thanks for Copy Select to Variation 1 to 8 ), and yes, I've triggered them from other slots this way also.

The major error looks like some feedback issue, I'll try putting that into another slot.

There is a specific need for me to use the 1st 8 notes of the MIDI channel for variation switching and the rest for playing (just because a single rs7000 track sends out on only 1 channel midi channel in grid mode), as this will require small changes to my patches (this is the major thing). This prf is meant to be a starting point for converting my existing patches (and new ones).

I'm sure I'll find a way (if keyzone doesn't work for me, I'll try the window switch module next) ... worst case, I'll have to work without variation changes being triggered remotely, but manually which is what I already do ... yes, I could write a Max patch to do this, but I want to be portable (with no laptop), just 2 g2's an rs7000 and some other gear ... like my avatar (except papa nord is replaced with an rs7k)

I probably won't get a chance to figure this out until later today ... if someone else does, lemme know ..
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wouldn't get rid of just the zone module. I'd get rid of all signals that don't explicidly use a cable. This means zone one, all hard keybard => envelope and pitch => osc links. I'd use a cable everywhere and use conditional switches on all cables. Only open the gate when the pitch is in the right range AND there's a gate. This way you avoid ambiguity and conflicts.

Perhaps it isn't nesicary to mention it but this way you can't send a note and a variation change at the same time and if you try so the note priority will either cut or delay either the change or the note, depending on relative note length and note priority

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dasz



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I wouldn't get rid of just the zone module. I'd get rid of all signals that don't explicidly use a cable. This means zone one, all hard keybard => envelope and pitch => osc links. I'd use a cable everywhere and use conditional switches on all cables. Only open the gate when the pitch is in the right range AND there's a gate. This way you avoid ambiguity and conflicts.


This may prove to be the solution, although I do want to avoid it as much as possible (as patch load of the existing patches is quite high), so minimal changes in the va area (the variation map may go to a master slot), we'll see ...

Quote:
Perhaps it isn't nesicary to mention it but this way you can't send a note and
a variation change at the same time and if you try so the note priority will either cut or delay either the change or the note, depending on relative note length and note priority


This isn't the problem as I have been running the switching without issues, as long as each variation uses the same settings for the midi note to cc70 map (otherwise all sorts infinite variation changes occur)...

re: polyphony --- i don't really use it ... it's a monophonic world my Nords live in (with some exceptions) ...

/Dasz

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

At the very least making it all cables should simplify looking for a solution, that's already something.

About polyphony; I saw that you didn't use it, but it's still polyphony as a concept that's making it all so hard. You are using both the mono and the poly area, for example. I think this should all be possible with polyphony too but the problem is that we'd want to avoid incoming notes that should affect just the variations to trigger the spawning of voices since that woill cause note-stealing.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
....... I was over at Smackos's place and he was complaining about the lack of a chord memory on the G2. So, I set out to create one for him, the idea was that you'd puch one of the interface buttons, hit a chord and after that you'd be able to play the root of that chord monophonically and the G2 would play the chord. I ended up calling Rob over that one witha major headache......


May i point to this thread were a chord memory is actually available
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-3893.html

For convenience the resulting patch is attached to this post.

And i have learned a lot from your ideas about polyphony. Thank you for that, Kassen!

Sorry to interrupt this topic, but maybe this patch gives some insight in alternative solutions?


chord_memory_syn.pch2
 Description:
Chord memory syn a la polysix with some added functionality

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 Filename:  chord_memory_syn.pch2
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll give that a carefull look tonight after dinner over a nice cup of coffee.

I should clarify that what I mean is realy the mapping of midi messages to notes coming out of the synth and the detailed controll over chords where those are used.

"polyphony" as a word means a couple of things, it's probably not too smart to use it here. Anyway, cool that you got something out of it all; I cooked up some solutions of my own in my secret lab that have some chance of going intot aht other synth (nduge nudge, wink, wink.) so if that pulls through I anticipate some quite interesting stuff there....

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thankfully the KeyDedect is polyphony independant (you can hold as many notes as you want, if these match the keydetect note, they will all light up) ... sux that the note detect cannot skip the keydetect notes (they double in the keyboard module).

I will check out the pch2 for chord memory to see how I can apply it...
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I have 2 solutions (1st one not perfect), but it does work. The 2nd one, needs a last note detector and I'll need to disable keyb pitch tracking and kb gate triggering, and wire the note detection for each patch ...

both solutions eat away 1 area of a single slot (fx or va) as it's memory is at 100% full! but this servers variation changes via note # for all 4 slots!!

1. NoteVarTriggerDZ.prf2
It may work in my live setup, but only for recording through grid mode ... but all tweaks of the from the g2 pannel are sent out to a different channel ... thus this will be the kind of patch I can remotely change the variations on, and play through the grid mode of the rs7000 ... if i want to record midi realtime, I will simply not use this patch as a template...

2. NoteVarTrigg2DZ.prf
Better solution, way better ... uses a single midi channel, but each patch needs a last note trigger ... not sure how this will work with polyphonic patches, but then I have so few of those ... and I would not need to do variation switching remotely for them so ... thanks to Kassen and Wan for the suggestion to use last note detector ...

/Dasz


NoteVarTriggerDZ.prf2
 Description:
Assign slot A to channel 5, slot B to channel 6 ... slot D to channel 8 (Alternatively you turn midi off for all 4 slots) ... Any note data on channels 1 .. 4 will change the variations (bottom 8 notes c-1 to g-1), the other notes get routed to play slots

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 Filename:  NoteVarTriggerDZ.prf2
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NoteVarTrigg2DZ.prf2
 Description:
A better solution, as each slots needs 1 midi channel, but each patch requires some tweaking (to disconnect keb triggered. I use the last note detector to check if the note is in range ... thanks to Kassen and Wan for the suggestion (last note detection)

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 Filename:  NoteVarTrigg2DZ.prf2
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The final version of the Default_DZ.prf2 for an rs7000 setup where you use the lowest 8 midi notes to change variations ... all else triggers the patch ...

Now I'm really having way too much fun ... it took a week, but it was worth it!

Thanks Kassen and Wan ...
/Dasz


Default_DZ.prf2
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sunday is the day I will create a multi-slot-variation-swappping system on the G2 and r7k using the above prf2 default ... i have a feeling it will be a session to remember ...

I don't know what the master g2 will do yet ...
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One more thing that you may want to add to this patch is a Sync Reset Note On Recieve (mine is set to C0). It resets the sync suing th C0 note on event (which his sent at the start of the sequence in the rs7000). I also added a change (a bunch of mixers connected to the variation cc sends), to add sync reset whenever you change variations (and I added a toggle switch to switch between this note sync reset, and the Sync ouptu from a clock gen).
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Updated default for polyphonic prf'2 (per slot) -- trigger variations with c-1 to g#-1, trigger sync reset (C-0, ch 1 only -- all slots listen for this sync signal), other notes play patch polyphonically ...

see the out modules ... I do not have the nord with me so I cannot test this. lemme know if it does NOT work.

/Dasz


default2_dz.prf2
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