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andrewF
Joined: Dec 29, 2006 Posts: 1176 Location: australia
Audio files: 4
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:08 am Post subject:
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Hi Fernando
i'm a bit new here too but ... Welcome!
i just printed out Scott's Modified Buchla 291 Filter, looks like it will be my next project - thanks Scott, this will be part of a mini-synth with the SN-voice
I have some Macron 'vactrols' that were made in Hong Kong,
http://www.macron.com.hk/optocoupler_mi0202cl.htm
sent to me as free samples that i have never used but the time has come.
Andrew |
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Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject:
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Wow! I've never heard of Macron optocouplers. Ought to be an interesting project, indeed!
Cheers,
Scott |
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Fernando
Joined: Dec 30, 2006 Posts: 286 Location: Barcelona & Emporda, Spain
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:40 am Post subject:
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Hi and thank you.
It would be interesting to have some specs of the Macron optocouplers, at least
-off res.
-1V res.
-5V res.
-10V resistance
-aproximate attack and release times.
And, were can be purchased?
I can't connect well to their site. It is very slow or erratic or something...
...maybe, the Bergfors vactrol control circuit could be a reference we could use to measure vactrol responses. The values for the Silonex SR3S are given already on the schematic... |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject:
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It kind of makes one wonder if the Morton Subotnick sound was entirely his, or purely down to Don Buchla and his low-pass gate design?
I suppose in 1967 few people had heard a sample and hold circuit? |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject:
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Fernando wrote: | I can't connect well to their site. It is very slow or erratic or something... |
with 5000 members on E-M, I wonder why
(I didn't have a problem this morning- before the USA woke up |
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Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject:
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Quote: | It kind of makes one wonder if the Morton Subotnick sound was entirely his, or purely down to Don Buchla and his low-pass gate design? |
IMHO, I think Subtonick and the Buchla 100, later the 200, certainly complemented each other quite well on those early recordings. Pretty much like the Fender Stratocaster and Hendrix complemented each other.
Quote: | I suppose in 1967 few people had heard a sample and hold circuit? |
That's a good question! When did the S&H become ubiquitous for musical purposes - pre or post Buchla system 100? Do you know, Howard?
Cheers,
Scott |
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andrewF
Joined: Dec 29, 2006 Posts: 1176 Location: australia
Audio files: 4
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:27 am Post subject:
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Hi Fernando
Macron have quite a range of different models, see if you can get onto this page -
http://www.macron.com.hk/specification.htm
The ones I have go -
on Res. - 700ohm
off Res. - 1M
rise time - 3.5msec
decay time- 500msec
I originally bought a handful of the MI 0202s in Akihabara, I emailed the company for some info and they kindly sent out a dozen samples of MI 65s.
To be honest the only thing I've done with them so far is trade some for a few real vactrols! |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject:
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Scott Stites wrote: | Pretty much like the Fender Stratocaster and Hendrix complemented each other.
Quote: | I suppose in 1967 few people had heard a sample and hold circuit? |
That's a good question! When did the S&H become ubiquitous for musical purposes - pre or post Buchla system 100? Do you know, Howard?
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Yes, but a Strat doesn't play itself (unless of course it has been left in the path of a hurricane and wired-up to a 100 watt stack )- unlike an s&h circuit does?
I suppose the first time sample and hold was heard by the masses was by people like ELP (the LP Brain Salad Surgery (awful name! ) had a sample and hold at the beginning- but nothing as cool as Subotnick's)? Then there were Jazz recordings too- like Raindance by Herbie Hancock (no electro music freak should be without this record!) and other early experimental jazz recordings (David Durrah?). Mort Garson's "Electronic Hair pieces" (based on the musical) also springs to mind.
All of the above were late 60's early 70's. Who pioneered Sample and Hold? Was it Buchla? Phillips?? |
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Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject:
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Quote: | Yes, but a Strat doesn't play itself (unless of course it has been left in the path of a hurricane and wired-up to a 100 watt stack )- unlike an s&h circuit does? |
A S&H will make noise with the aid of other modules, just as a Strat will with the aid of a nearby amplifier set to 11.
But, actually I was referring to the entire instrument rather than the S&H itself. In truth, S&H on a Buchla system is quite outshadowed by all of the other available elements in the control structure. Even the S&H I used on that piece was just one small function taken from a list of functions the 266 SOU had to offer.
We both know S&H will actually not play itself - it takes a bit of programming, albeit simple as that may be: plug a source voltage into it, plug a clock source into it, and plug the output into something else. There lies the rub. What should clock it? What source voltage should I use? What should the S&H control? What should control its clock? Where does it fit into the piece? Should I use it at all? With the overwhelming possibilities available to him, to me the genius of those early works is that it's as much about what Subotnick did with the instrument as what he *didn't* do with the instrument.
Cheers,
Scott |
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007 Posts: 583 Location: France
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:52 am Post subject:
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Scott Stites wrote: | Here you go, this one should work fine. It's got the Verbos buffers, the high and low pass tap points/outputs, and the input mixer.
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Hey dear all !
Can anybody find the 2N3566 datasheet ?
(or the pinouts for a TO-105 transistor)
We've build here two of this filter (trying to drop some pix) and have problem with the transistor implementation on verbos' pcb...
FF |
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Scott Stites
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Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:46 am Post subject:
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It's a general purpose NPN transistor - same pinout as a 2N3904 (in fact, I've used those in the circuit before). Looking at the transistor 'flat side' facing you, pins down, the pinout is EBC.
Here is what Mouser presents as a datasheet for it, it's a different number, but same pinout and specs:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/PN%2FPN2369.pdf
Cheers,
Scott |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:25 am Post subject:
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Scott Stites wrote: | to me the genius of those early works is that it's as much about what Subotnick did with the instrument as what he *didn't* do with the instrument. |
I remember reading somewhere that he became a little over-obsessive with the Music Box. Working 365 days of the year. Can you picture all that tape??? |
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numbernone
Joined: Aug 16, 2006 Posts: 477 Location: new york city
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:37 am Post subject:
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One for those a little brighter than this dim bulb (read all of you ).
I have drawn up an adptation of the Verbos PCB, which includes Scott's excellent additions. It conforms to the most recently posted schematic, and I have managed to fit it onto an PCB Express mini board (CHEAP!!!). My question regards caps #11-16, I am having a real pain of a time trying to work these into my layout. I see that they are not included in Mark's version. I have a vague idea of them keeping the power solid to all of the IC's, but am hoping someone may shed some light on them. I REALLY wanna keep it all on the puny little board, and want to know how big of an explosion I can expect if they are left out.
Thanks all. |
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Fernando
Joined: Dec 30, 2006 Posts: 286 Location: Barcelona & Emporda, Spain
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject:
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Numbernone,
if that means you'll order a batch of PCBs, count on me for some (are they single or double filter like Mark's?)
Also, it could be great that the board can be held by two of the pots, pref. freq and BW (oh please)
(in fact I would preffer the board have a single filter and two on-board pots than two filters...)
Fernando |
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numbernone
Joined: Aug 16, 2006 Posts: 477 Location: new york city
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject:
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As I am a little unsure of my abilities as far as PCB design goes, I would prefer to just upload my layout for everyones use. Granted that is only after I have tested it out and found it to be spot on. Then you could fudge it for PCB mount pots etc. as it stands I am gonna have to do a bit more to make space for mounting hardware and so forth, its very TIGHT. Only a single filter on the board, it is only 2.5 by 3.8 inches. Once someone can fill me in on the need for all the extra caps, I will get my order going and let ya all know whats up.
So lets hear about C11-C16!!!! |
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Fernando
Joined: Dec 30, 2006 Posts: 286 Location: Barcelona & Emporda, Spain
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject:
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all right.
I'm very sorry I can't help with that... Hopefully Scott or someone will be here soon =:s
I'm electronically impaired and an absolute mess in layout matters but those caps look like plain op amp decoupling, normally placed very close to each chip and often on the solder side.
Maybe http://www.cgs.synth.net/ for a bunch of schematic <--> pcb layout...
Ken now use SMD capacitors on the solder side...
that's what I can suggest so far...
(but... 2.5x3.8 = 9.5 sq inches. The smaller pcb limit is 9''...) |
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numbernone
Joined: Aug 16, 2006 Posts: 477 Location: new york city
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject:
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Yeh I figured they were just extra decouplers or something, but found them strangely absent from the Verbos design, that one just using the big electros. Anyhow its good fun trying to figure all this stuff out dont ya know... |
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Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject:
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You'll probably be fine leaving them off.
Generally, it's a fairly common practice to bypass IC's with 0.1 uF caps (some people prefer 0.01, but that's a whole different debate). The idea is that the IC may suddenly be called on to supply more current than the inductance of the trace will momentarily allow. The bypass caps act as a sort of resevoir to supply that current while the other electrons are being hassled by the Henrys.
You'll notice the rails pass through a ten ohm resistor, which is another add-on. See any design by Ken Stone to get a grip on what that's all about.
Anyway, I'm betting you probably won't notice any difference - the Buchla design didn't have them, and the extra stuff isn't doing anything more outrageous than the original circuit. If, for some reason, you would need to add them, they could be tacked on later - they're pretty small.
Cheers,
Scott |
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Fernando
Joined: Dec 30, 2006 Posts: 286 Location: Barcelona & Emporda, Spain
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:39 am Post subject:
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Hi all, I just drawed (manually) the Volts vs Resistance table in Bergfors schematic (*) for the Silonex NSL-32SR3 and I got a nice exponential curve.
So, if anyone build his filter and/or just the vactrol control circuit, it would be very interesting to compare the NSL-32SR3 vs VTL5C3 curves... (V vs R)
(*)
http://hem.bredband.net/bersyn/VCBPF%20Bergfotron.png |
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Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:23 am Post subject:
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FWIW, I get pretty good V/Oct with the expo sink I used in the Mutant and the Phase Shifter as well.
Cheers,
Scott |
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007 Posts: 583 Location: France
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject:
Great Thanks ! |
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Quote: | Hey dear all !
Can anybody find the 2N3566 datasheet ?
(or the pinouts for a TO-105 transistor)
We've build here two of this filter (trying to drop some pix) and have problem with the transistor implementation on verbos' pcb...
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Scott Stites wrote: | It's a general purpose NPN transistor - same pinout as a 2N3904 (in fact, I've used those in the circuit before). Looking at the transistor 'flat side' facing you, pins down, the pinout is EBC.
Here is what Mouser presents as a datasheet for it, it's a different number, but same pinout and specs:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/PN%2FPN2369.pdf
Cheers,
Scott |
Great !!!
thank you Scott
Both filters work now with 2n3904 !
I didn't manage to work it out with the original 3566, will give another try later...
Are you all satisfied with the CV response ?
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007 Posts: 583 Location: France
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject:
291 samples |
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Here's a short example with BandPass output :
(fast) manual sweep
LFO into CF CV IN
ADSR into BW CV IN
EnvFollwer into FM CV IN
291_BPF_SOFT_SYNC.wav |
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007 Posts: 583 Location: France
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject:
291 samples |
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And another interesting sound from "the other 291 french adaptation"...
with AD633 ring modulator from here
633_291shining.wav |
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Fernando
Joined: Dec 30, 2006 Posts: 286 Location: Barcelona & Emporda, Spain
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject:
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Thanks for the pictures and samples (very cool!)
about the CV response... maybe Scott or someone explored it's limits...
I think the Buchla uses 10V for CV, are you using this range? |
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007 Posts: 583 Location: France
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject:
Subject description: 291 styro caps |
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By the way, I have here 100 encumbering pieces of 900pF Styroflex caps.
I will throw them soon !
If anyone is interested for this project, only shipping fees...
although only one is needed ?!
funkyfarm, paris. |
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