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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
COUNTERS-more in depth as related to lunettas
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: COUNTERS-more in depth as related to lunettas Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok

i spent my weekend on counters.

i ordered a ton of em and tried some things...

but now i have more questions than answers.

1. Mosc talked about using the 4018 to make melodies. someone else championed the 4520. i have tried both and also the 4518 and 4522. now mosc mentioned 4 inputs. what confused me about which "inputs" he meant are there are 8 inputs: Preset 1-4(jam 1-4)
AND load, clock, in and reset.

Now all of the presettable counters have similar inputs so first i wanted to make sure of which inputs people meant as far as what might be good to stick jacks on.

Do the Preset inputs help much for making melodies?

or are people mainly saying you can make the reset, clock, and enable/load inputs into inputs which will be driven by the high and low of a square wave input?


ALSO- and this is a big one...as far as making melodies it seems these happen mostly when the clock Is SLOW and the individual outputs are all summed with a resistor network. This works great as a CV source for a vco and creates great 4 note melodies BUT it sounded like some people were saying the counter itself could make AN AUDIO RATE melody.

but when you go so slow that the notes are separated, the audio is too low to really make out. so is this a control voltage source only? (or noise source?)

also, the preset inputs are sometimes called JAM.

the only way i could think of hooking up jacks to those, youd have to have one jack go high on enable, then have high or low on P1-P4...would that do much?



THESE QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN BUGGING ME ALL WEEK. but answers would do a lot to help me get past my fear of counters!!!

thanks guys


this has been great!

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to see you had some fun, but the weekend is not over yet Laughing

From http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-23896.html

the key sentence is :

Quote:
The idea is that you plug in your OSC, or any other signal that is square (digital) into the input and the output is divided by the binary number applied to the 4 control inputs.


The input is the clock input, and the control inputs are the jam or preset inputs (control and jam really is the same thing here). Now it could be that you need a strobe signal to make the jam inputs effective, in case of the 4018 that input is the preset enable input, so you'll want to pulse that one occasionally, or when left floating touch it with your finger. You can listen to any of the Q outputs, they'll have a different character each.

I didn't check out the other counter types, but the idea would be similar.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah i guess it is only saturday...

anyway, i had read and re-read that mosc post and i never could figure if he meant the jam inputs or not. so that clears up alot.



basically then, these P1-P4 inputs, depending on if each one is high or low, it gives the chip a NUMBER to work off of that it then divides by right?
very cool.

now my other question DOES THIS ONLY WORK AS A CV SOURCE? its really to low to hear isnt it when its individual notes...

thanks again

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You got it Exclamation and it's only too low for low clock speeds, so you need a faster clock maybe ... for every division factor of two you go down an octave, so that could easily be 3, 4 or even 5 octaves lower for the chip as a whole, crank up the clock Very Happy
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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

maybe i didnt explain this right...i have a clock that can go fast or slow. BUT as far as making the clock go fast, well then it doesnt really sound like melodys so much as just noise. when the clock is slow i can get som really nice strings of notes through cv into a vco. but if i just listen to the audio of that string, it sounds like a very low pitch mush.

i dont know how else to explain it but from what mosc was explaining, it sounded like he was talking about it putting out melodys through audio, not cv.

but i will experiment more tommorow and i am sure i will find useful sounds!!

thanks

exciting new area!

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MyPasswordIs123456



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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am trying to figure out how to implement the counter described in the Stan Lunetta interview:

LM: How are the sounds generated?

SL: It makes pitches through binary relationships. It counts to a number, and when it reaches that number it goes back and counts to that number again, and then it goes back and counts to that number again, and the rate at which it goes back and counts again is the frequency of the pitch. As long as it counts to the same number over and over again, you'll get that same pitch. Now if it counts to a high number it gets a lower pitch than if it counts to a low number, because it takes more time to count to 200 and go back and do it again than it does to count to 2. If you read that out in logical fashion, from the smallest number to the largest number, the pitch will go from high to low.

---------------------------------------------------

I have the CMOS cookbook scheduled for shipping in 3 weeks which will definitely help my understanding of these chips.

I think there would be a sort of feedback loop to drive the clock input of the counter and a comparator to reset the counter when the pitch treshold is reached. But really I have no clue how to do this...

Does anyone have ideas/concept about how to achieve this particular counter?
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When creating music from counters comes up lately, I step upon my evangelizing podium, hold steadfast to the toothbrush of truth (known as the truthbrush), and call your attention to Boolean Synthesis and ChucK Lab. Some know about these goodies but most probably don't, so I'll explain.

To compose a Boolean Synthesis song, take an 8 to 12 bit counter and clock it at 4 Hz, then build some wild and weird combinational logic off of the counter's outputs. Play a note only when that logic output is a one. Then set the frequency of the note proportional to some sub-term taps summed together and you got yourself a great tune or not depending on your choices of logic.

To do all of the above in software on a Mac, just run my ChucK Lab software which has that and lots more goodies to try.

Those are two things that I have learned, worked on, and/or created in my short time as a music hobbyist so they're like my little creations and I like to share them, so pardon the minor bit of self-promotion if you will. Have fun making music with counters, however you do it.

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jnuaury



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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MyPasswordIs123456 wrote:

Does anyone have ideas/concept about how to achieve this particular counter?



you can use a 4017 counter run an oscillator into its clock input
this will be the frequency which all the subharmonics will be derived from (so you may want to start with a high tone)

now listen to what is coming out of pin 3 (the zeroth output)
you will hear a tone 10 times lower than the input because the counter counts to ten by default

you can patch different pins to the reset pin to get other divisions
so if you want to divide by 4 (two octaves down) take the 4th output and patch it to the reset pin


i hope that made things more clear. you can get some beautiful harmonic intervals with this method.
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MyPasswordIs123456



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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you very much jnuaury, yes that's the kind of information I was looking for. I am pretty sure I can work from there. I experimented setting up basic arpegiator with voltage dividers and was looking for a bit more of randomness but without resorting to photo-resistors and other slightly unstable sensors. I am a programmer so I do have a good knowledge of logic functions, but electronics is new to me.

This Lunetta project is really exciting and seems like a good first project for me, I think it closes the gap between circuit bending and full blown diy.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

inventor:

sounds great BUT
could you explain this in a bit more detail or provide a schematic (id be building it with CMOS not chuck) perhaps?

questions


1. what is weird combinational logic?
2. what is a sub term tap?



"To compose a Boolean Synthesis song, take an 8 to 12 bit counter and clock it at 4 Hz, then build some wild and weird combinational logic off of the counter's outputs. Play a note only when that logic output is a one. Then set the frequency of the note proportional to some sub-term taps summed together and you got yourself a great tune or not depending on your choices of logic."

thanks

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
inventor:

sounds great BUT
could you explain this in a bit more detail or provide a schematic (id be building it with CMOS not chuck) perhaps?

questions


1. what is weird combinational logic?
2. what is a sub term tap?

thanks


OK, here's how I do it in my ChucK Lab software: I take the and of some of the bits, say three of them. Then I take the and of some more of the bits, say four of them. Then i take yet another and of two bits. These are the sub term taps. Now I or these together with a three-input or gate and the output of that is the music gate control. You can do whatever you want with it, if you chose your input terms well, it will be wild and woolly, haha!

Then take those three sub-terms, the outputs of the and gates and put them into a summing amp. This goes into a VCO or something, as it should control the note frequency. When you have only one light you have a certain frequency, two lights double, three lights triple.

Plus you can play with the summing amp and weight the inputs with pots to vary the frequencies somewhat. Also handy is XOR and XNOR gates, they make nice sequences.

Hope that helps, ask again for mor clarification if you want, I'm always happy to help. Cheers!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, I should also mention that you can use input bits more than once. For example, one good sequence to try is (a0&a1)|(a1&a2)|(a2&a3), and the summing amp does (a0&a1)+(a1&a2)+(a2&a3). I guess you could just use a three-input voltage divider instead of a summing amp for starters, use large enough resistors, say in the 10k Ohm range. Good luck and have fun!
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

when you say" I take the and of some of the bits" do you mean you take the outputs and you AND them with ground, with +v or with each other??

i am very new to logic and bits. thanks

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
when you say" I take the and of some of the bits" do you mean you take the outputs and you AND them with ground, with +v or with each other??

i am very new to logic and bits. thanks


Well, for someone who is so new to all this, you sure are accomplishing a lot! I've noticed some of your posts and we have something in common: we are both newbies in the music creation world and we're both having a great time exploring the hardware, the software, and various forms of music creation. Or at least that's my impression. So don't feel bad about lack of knowledge, we're here to help each other with our diverse skill sets. But you knew that, I ramble yet again.

"Taking the and of the bits" means you connect those bits to the inputs of an and logic gate. In the example I gave, which is (a0&a1)|(a1&a2)|(a2&a3), you would connect a0 and a1 to the inputs of a two-input and gate, and the same for the two other terms, then connect their three outputs to the three inputs of a three-input or gate. Then for the frequency you connect each of the three bits to a 10 k Ohm resistor and make a three-input voltage divider by connecting the other side of the resistors to the output and adding a 10 k Ohm resistor from the output to ground. Is that clear enough?

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

awesome!!
i will have to try this

you are correct about how much i have been learning. you should SEE how many breadboards i have full right now!! its been quite a year of learning.




shift registers and gates are starting to make more and more sense to me but i am still not to certain of the terminology.

i am starting to come to terms with how binary numbers work and i was even reading about adders tonight in my CMOS cookbook which i keep in the bathroom with a highlighter next to it.

its so dense! every page could be a new circuit idea!

thanks so much

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