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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » ChucK programming language
ChucK Guitar Workstation
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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Location: The Hague, NL
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, I think you are on to something.

A while back I was working on my "lead-joypad" instrument and handing it to people to test and they all ended up shaking it so I started investigating way to map "shaking" to the sound in addition to just tilting.

When you look at basically any video of a rock concert you'll see musicians tilt their guitar (happens with trumpet and sax as well, BTW) so I think Guitar Hero is on the right track with it's tilt-sensor. Bringing it back and implementing it on a actual guitar is the logical next step, I feel.

If I look at videos of rock performances, BTW, I could imagine using the location of the musician on stage too, as well as his direction and distance relative to a second guitarist if there is one. There seems a sub-concious desire to use those factors expressively.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Yeah, I think you are on to something.

WooHoo! I sure hope so.

Kassen wrote:
A while back I was working on my "lead-joypad" instrument and handing it to people to test and they all ended up shaking it so I started investigating way to map "shaking" to the sound in addition to just tilting.

You might want to consider doing something along the lines of what I'm doing then. I like the A-PAC products from Ultimarc, but they do have limitations. The original A-PAC supports up to 32 buttons, but only 4 analog/potentiometer inputs. The A-PAC2 supports up to 6 analog/potentiometer inputs but no buttons. Currently I'm planning to use the A-PAC2 with a single 3-axis accelerometer and two switches.

Kassen wrote:
When you look at basically any video of a rock concert you'll see musicians tilt their guitar (happens with trumpet and sax as well, BTW) so I think Guitar Hero is on the right track with it's tilt-sensor. Bringing it back and implementing it on a actual guitar is the logical next step, I feel.

Yeah, I saw how they made a place to put the WiiMote inside the Guitar Hero guitar, but that's not what gave me the idea. It's a synthesis, you know, it's time has come and I'm amazed nobody else is doing it. I'm no pioneer.

Kassen wrote:
If I look at videos of rock performances, BTW, I could imagine using the location of the musician on stage too, as well as his direction and distance relative to a second guitarist if there is one. There seems a sub-concious desire to use those factors expressively.

I should be able to detect side-to-side motion and perhaps jumping up and down. Moving forward and backward will have the same effect as rotating laterally (twisting the body at the hips). That's about all I can do with just one 3-axis accelerometer chip.

I looked into full angular and linear tracking by using two 3-axis accelerometers, but the math was about to make my head explode!!! It's Euler angles which involve equations of 3x3 matrices with trig functions in each position, way too much math for me. It should work OK with just one chip.

Thanks for the observation though, I had not considered that part of the picture.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Inventor wrote:

You might want to consider doing something along the lines of what I'm doing then. I like the A-PAC products from Ultimarc, but they do have limitations. The original A-PAC supports up to 32 buttons, but only 4 analog/potentiometer inputs. The A-PAC2 supports up to 6 analog/potentiometer inputs but no buttons. Currently I'm planning to use the A-PAC2 with a single 3-axis accelerometer and two switches.


I don't see the need for that yet. What I'm doing is squaring the current value of my tilt axis (after smoothing) calculating the delta of that and the last value and adding that to "shake" value from which I also periodically subtract, based on it's current value. This gives me the amount of movement in recent history without any need for extra sensors.


Kassen wrote:
Yeah, I saw how they made a place to put the WiiMote inside the Guitar Hero guitar, but that's not what gave me the idea.


Actually I think Guitar Hero may have been using tilt sensors since before the Wii. The Wii's motion sensitivity isn't as new as people would have you believe. The fishing controller for the Dreamcast also comes to mind, as does a Japan-only PlayStation game meant to emulate the experience of a orchestra's conductor with a tilt-sensing staff.


Quote:
It's a synthesis, you know, it's time has come and I'm amazed nobody else is doing it. I'm no pioneer.


I'm not sure about that. Mathews started working with augmented instruments pritty much right after he got a computer music language to run. Our own Perry Cook has done a lot of work on augmented instruments as well, he worked with a violin with tilt-sensors for example. That's not to say your work isn't interesting and actually I think being able to read about previous research is quite convenient. You may be the first to apply it to electric guitar though.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=Le5&q=perry+cook+augmented+instruments+tilt&btnG=Search&meta=

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
You may be the first to apply it to electric guitar though.

That's what I meant, though actually there is the HotHand product:

http://www.sourceaudio.net/

That product is a finger ring with an accelerometer and a radio transmitter that sends signal to an effects box. In fact, I just put some text on my guitar motion sensor that advises people who want something like what I'm doing to go ahead and buy a hothands, just mount the finger ring on the guitar and adjust the sensitivity how they like it. It's a great one-axis approach. The benefit of my approach is it's only $100 in parts plus it has three axes. So it's been done I should have said actually.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually, it may not be a bad idea to also have a sensor or two on your plucking hand. To me it looks like some guitarists subconsciously expect that waving their plucking-hand after a particularly rough strum somehow modulates the tone. You might as well make that work as well!

:¬D

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"Krack-KaBoom!" went the thunderstorm that shut down my local net connection for a while today, but did I care? Heck no! I only just noticed it while I was in the middle of a phone conversation with Andy of Ultimarc, the company that makes the USB interface that I selected for the GMS project. I had written him an email suggesting that he might want to consider adding the product to his company's product line.

Well, lo and behold he was very excited about it so I shared tons of technical details with him and he immediately started adapting that information to his company's technology. So here I am announcing on my web page, on two guitar forums, and on electro-music.com that a new accelerometer-on-a-USB product is coming down the river and will be here soon!

Not only that, but we discussed financial things ever so briefly and it appears that I might get some compensation from them for all my efforts. WooHoo! I say! Just goes to show when you learn to open up and share with the world instead of keeping things to yourself, good things *can* happen.

Well, not only that but I awake from my naps with renewed excitement about guitars, HID, the GMS project, my web site, and all that jazz! It's fun to giddily happy once again for a change. I sure hope it lasts.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WOW! congrats! Great news!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just had the most fun with this thing. I coded up a pitch shifter and also a fixed pitch shifter. The latter performs conversion of a six-string guitar to a six-string bass guitar. It even gets the open string frequencies right on each string. So now I can play bass guitar on my six-string. Cool trick, huh? Thanks to the power of ChucK.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, the ups and downs of this little roller coaster are in the downs now. I haven't heard a response to my email from Ultimarc in two days, so now I don't know if they are proceeding with the product or not. Web traffic has died down to the level it was at prior to launching the project page. My young assistant has made zero contributions. My ubuntu CD won't load, presumably because it doesn't have enough RAM.

So things are not looking up at the moment. As to Ultimarc, I will just shift gears and go to a WiiMote solution, I suppose. I don't need the kid's help, and if web traffic is slow that's nothing new to me. Plus I can add RAM to the notebook, so that has a solution also. I'll just keep on trying and see what happens.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How much ram do you have? Are you sure it's non-corrupt? First time I tried to install Linux I ran into lots of trouble which turned out to be due to a corruption in one RAM chip.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
How much ram do you have? Are you sure it's non-corrupt? First time I tried to install Linux I ran into lots of trouble which turned out to be due to a corruption in one RAM chip.


I'm running the ubuntu RAM test now, it's writing binary patterns and all kinds of stuff to the RAM so we will see, it takes a while. The pc is a Celeron 797.6 MHz with 32K L1 Cache, 128k L2 Cache, and 126M of Memory. That's what it says in the upper left of the memtest86 window.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I went into the menus to figure out why it had 126 MB instead of 128 MB. Then the test found bad memory at locations between 127 MB and 128 MB. So that's probably the problem. Need a whole new system RAM. Now to contact Dell...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The system I'm posting from runs Ubuntu, it's a 900MHz AMD with 500MB of ram.

Right now I'm running Firefox3 and "Rhythm box music player" which is a MP3 player with a DB thingy, kinda like iTunes but looks more plain and it's faster. This takes 280MB or so of RAM and my swap ins about 100 MB right now (but hardly used, judging by the HD led).

I'd say that means 128 is a bit too low, 500 sounds more reasonable to me. If the difference in price is low (sometimes older types of RAM are more expensive these days, watch out) I might slap in a Gig and be done with it.

To me systems like that are perfect to use for what they can still take as long as they can take it. There's so much stuff people throw out after getting a new PC, you can scavenge yet live like a king :¬)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, makes perfect sense, Kassen. I kind of want to use a minimal system also because that will help me design the software for lower powered boxes. I need not contact dell about the RAM yet, gotta save, but it's on the project to-do list. All things in good time, eh?
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diskonext



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is a kernel patch out there (badmem) that takes memtest86 output and instructs the kernel not to use the bad blocks.

From some googling I couldn't find a definite yes or no to whether it is included by default in Ubuntu, but it might be worth looking at it - it'll save you hunting down old RAM chips.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

diskonext wrote:
There is a kernel patch out there (badmem) that takes memtest86 output and instructs the kernel not to use the bad blocks.

From some googling I couldn't find a definite yes or no to whether it is included by default in Ubuntu, but it might be worth looking at it - it'll save you hunting down old RAM chips.


Well, the poor little laptop didn't have that much RAM to begin with, so it will need some RAM to breathe life back into it anyway, but definitely thanks for the info.

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