Censorship on this forum?

monobass · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: Censorship on this forum?

A thread has been deleted.

It was entitled " "Does anyone feel like taking a shot at this?" and was posted by the member Hyde.

Why has this thread been deleted? I sincerely hope it's a mistake rather than admin censorship.

Hyde included a link to a recording of a Mr Bungle gig, which he was hosting on his own webspace. He was trying to emulate an effect Mike Patton used to change his voice. A interesting post, Mike Patton uses some of the most interesting voice effects out there.

Due to the electro-music rules the link was removed, an irrational and kneejerk reaction IMO considering Hyde was hosting the file himself, at the end of the thread Hyde said he wouldn't be coming back to this forum.

What is going on?

blue hell · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject:

Yes a thread was deleted, and I did it.

What went on is that someone posted a link to copyrighted material. Mosc went into that thread and deleted the link. After that person in question went in again to reestablish the link.

This is not a proper way to handle such a situation. Discussion is fine and there could have been very valid reasons for not deleting the link, but just edit it back in is not an option. At that stage it was not possible for me to communicate with mosc, so I had really no choice but to go in and edit the link out again refering to the forum's conditions of use as to why I had done so.

After that person in question went in again and not only re-re-established the link but also he did put in a few dirty words too many. I then moved the thread and sent a PM to person in question to explain why I had removed the thread.

As said, unfortunately mosc was not available at that stage for comment on this, so I had to guess a bit about what was going on, and just hoped I did the right thing (for which I now have confirmation).

It may have all looked a bit messy an I'm really sorry when this upset anyone.

To more directly answer the question, yes this is censorship. This forum has no license to publish copyrighted material without the copyright holder's consent, such material will be removed (although occasionally someone is "lucky" and slips thru).

monobass · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject:

That's ugly, There were a few swear words and raised voices.. is this forum running to some kind of conservative christian agenda? Smile

Can anyone suggest any alternatives to this forum?

I find this forum really stifling due to it's conservative and obsessive rules and fragmented design. all in all it leads to a lame community compared to a lot of forums.. which is insane considering how good the old mail list used to be!

I know quite a few G2 users now who just don't bother coming here anymore because it just doesn't ever seem to get a good critical mass of chat going, and consequently people just don't seem bothered to post many patches. An interesting thread gets going and then mosc obsessively files it away into some sub-sub-forum on a whim.. but unfortunately this site is the focus for the scene.

It just doesn't seem to represent the openess and creativity of a lot of G2 users. It seems perfectly valid that posting copyrighted material fits into 'fair use' rules.

Kassen · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject:

monobass · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject:

I find it just plain wrong to delete a thread due to swear words, people should be allowed to judge for themselves, I don't need or want moral guidance. It's highly condescending and illiberal.

Including sub-sections the Nord Modular section alone has over 25 forums. It's bureaucratic and fragmented and really counter-productive.
I've voiced my opinions on the design before.

I was all in favour of a change over to a forum when it happened a few years ago but I think what we have ended up with has driven the quality of the community downwards considerably compared to where it was at the start of the decade. There are still fantastic posters and contributions on this forum but it's in spite of the design.

My opinion is to stop trying to cram something amorphous and evolving into your tiny little boxes and just limit it to a handful of forums. If someone posts something off topic maybe the moderators could just take a deep breath and relax... Stop trying to squeeze the humanity out of it...

slave to this · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject:

i don't really have an opinion on any censorship issues...i'm pretty grateful for this place as it is...have you guys ever checked out the max/msp forum and mailing list? talk about a bunch of elitist pricks who generally don't even know what they are talking about. it makes me happy to at least have some very knowledgeble people with the g2 who constantly view the forum and who are willing to help you out with questions + share their patches/ideas. for that reason alone, i'll never stray.

james

cebec · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject:

Wow, it's pretty simple, I think. The user in question violated the policy on uploading copyrighted content, which it is in everyone's best interest to adhere to, and continued to do so until he launched personal attacks at the community and moderators, then said he was 'out of here'. And now you seem to be defending him with the same tactics. There are several better ways he could've handled this and he chose the worst one of them all.
Look, this is the BEST forum I'm on and I've been on them all. I wouldn't call this place conservative, censuring, or Christian.
I would suggest you go start your own forum and run it the way YOU want to and let us know how it works out.

dasz · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject:

my $0.02

i have, through experience learned to PM folks when I have an issue to resolve with a member of the community -- directly is the best approach, right?..

I think kassen put it eloquantly ... there are rules we abide by, and esp when they involve copyright, since it is too easy to use someone else stuff, and too easy to sue any organization that support it.

our motto of "you're free to use my patch as long as i get credited for it", and our efforts to stop anyone from selling 50,000 G2/NM1 patches on ebay ensure we are following good practises and everyone can reap the rewards (even if they are merely mentioned in someone's credit).

I do agree that if you are looking for a specific sound, you may need to play it. in which case either list the artist and track, or PM someone privately with a sample of the work if they ask.

/Dasz

blue hell · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject:

monobass · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject:

It's an extremely conservative forum by it's very nature.
A need to fit everything into a filing system, censorship and bowing to the climate of fear generated by RIAA lawyers.

It just feels at odds with the point of the community to me. I just imagine a seperate or self contained Nord Modular community would be so much better.

mosc · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject:

There are many issues raised here.

First the issue of removing the post because of swear word. I have read the post. It was not just swear words, it was insulting and disrespectful. Respect is a core value of this community. I guess requireing respect is conservative, I can handle that. Determining what is disrespectful and what is not is a judgement call. The editors have to make that call and sometimes we may get it wrong. There are many forums and lists where no one takes any stand as to what is respectful and what is not. Many of us have found those places to be distasteful at best.

We've gotten a lot of heat for running a moderated forum from a few people, but many more have expressed appreciation. We can't be all things to all people. It is important to understand that very editor is a volunteer; we do this as a a labor of love.

Now, as for the organization of the Nord Modular section, we've been over that many times. Some people would like a flat list, so I hacked the forum code to allow a flat list of the most recent NM topics. See, About this Forum - the first topic of the NM Discussison Forum - http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-1559.html

I'm willing to hack the code to make the forum more useful. In fact, I get a kick out of it, but it is hard to be enthusiastic about doing something for someone who insults you. I might be more forgiving if I was a Christian. Twisted Evil

Sorry for being sarcastic. I know the Cristian Conservative comment was made in gest. Thanks for the feedback. I hope nobody gets so fussed that they drop out of the community.

I invite Hyde to repost. There are many ways to provide access to this particular song without a direct link.

Peace

BobTheDog · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:25 pm Post subject:

I must admit one of the reasons I like this forum so much is the lack of unneeded swearing and in-fighting you get on other more chaotic forums. Now don't get me wrong I am not conservative and I do swear a fair bit, but at the right place and time. There is no need to swear here, this is just basic politeness.

Also copyright is important, I want to get paid for the things I produce and other people should get paid for the things they produce, this is just fairness.

So for me this forum is a polite and fair place, seems good to me.

Cheers

Andy

seraph · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:26 pm Post subject:

Fozzie · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:04 am Post subject:

Of course Steve is entitled to his opinion. So am I, and I for one am very (VERY) glad that this place is polite and open. I too have been on several different forums where trolling and flame wars are more important than having serious, funny or other 'nice' conversations. That's a definite turn-off for me, so I am very happy with this forum and thought I'd express it. *Done*

Regarding forum-structure: sure, it could be less organized with less sub-sections and all, but I don't think any model would be good enough for all members to reach concensus. By just looking at the overview pages and monitoring the orange thingies or the last-posted dates, it is very easy to watch it all (I do it daily, it doesn't take much time; IMHO it is better than a mailing list with some members who habitually respond to digests and forget to delete unnecessary parts).

Regarding conservatism on this forum: although I am a christian myself (and not considering myself conservative, but if this means I am by anyone's definition then I am Wink

), I cannot find anything christian about E-M.com. I think it is open to any ideas about the large issues in life, and I think Mosc actively tries to convey that.

Live long and prosper (we need an emoticon with the finger/hand thingie)

Kassen · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:48 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:58 am Post subject:

We still support the NM list, BTW...

monobass · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:18 am Post subject:

If the NM community was freestanding it would be quite a small and anonymous thing which wouldn't attract the attention of anyone malicious. It then wouldn't have to be subject to rules which have to govern electro-music as a whole inlcuding the shop and artist space etc. I don't have a problem with electro-music as a whole, I just see that on balance it is restrictive to the possibilities of this community.

As for my views on copyright, I freely distribute all the music I release commercially on my label through p2p networks. I regularly download other artists music over p2p networks and if I like it enough to want to listen to it multiple times I buy it in some form.

I liked the free-for-all nature of the mailing list though, it was a very creative atmosphere.. if you would consider that a very liberal atmosphere.. and as I do the structure of the electro-music very conservative then I feel that swing has left a big gap.

monobass · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:27 am Post subject:

I do realise.. that by definition I am preaching to the un-converted here..

Uncle Krunkus · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:08 am Post subject:

I know next to nothing about the NM, but I am very appreciative of the fact that electro-music has moderators who are willing to put in the time and effort to keep the posts organised and relevant.
I've looked around at other forums, and most of them are just overflowing with shit!! Miles and miles of sewerage where people just slag each other off, backwards and forwards, simply because someone else has a different viewpoint. No-one has any pride in the forum because they are basically of the attitude that they can always resort to some literary head kicking and then go off and crap in someone elses nest.

Kassen · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:55 am Post subject:

monobass · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:08 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:42 am Post subject:

monobass · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:57 am Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:09 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: