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majutsu
Joined: Jun 18, 2006 Posts: 151 Location: New York
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject:
supercollider windows is dead |
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sorry for getting everyone excited about sc3
sonenvir has decided to make sc3 windows private access.
even if they change this feature it speaks badly of character.
all links to sonenvir posted previously are now dead.
i strongly encourage people to move on to the multiple programs fresher and less dated than supercollider, such as PD or ChucK. These programs encourage growth and development for all musicians and computer scientists.
I hope everyone enjoyed this little interlude and sorry they made such poor choices. I hope everyone learned something in the process, and hope it was fun for all. _________________ All phenomena are atoms in association and dissociation. |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject:
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meaning.. commercial, shareware.. and not freeware.. or?
Hmm.. who would want SC for Windows anyway? OS X will do just fine. There is no need for Windows.
_________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject:
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Who needs OSX? Linux will do.
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elektro80
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majutsu
Joined: Jun 18, 2006 Posts: 151 Location: New York
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject:
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actually all sonenvir builds are private access, all os
of course, j mc still has the sc mac on his website.
new fancy add ons will be missing, but is still a good text language
pd with gem and all the cvs classes and objects blows it away, if you can take graphical language
linux and sc 3 source sort of go together given server design
this isn't about os, as i have all three. i'm just suprised that they curled up with more traffic and attention. don't want to be populist i guess. sort of contrary to the open source spirit.
of course, communities and university support of max/msp/pd blow sc away and make it vastly more fun for the interactive musician.
well, for me i take it as a sign to quit worrying about computer science and get back to focusing on music. _________________ All phenomena are atoms in association and dissociation. |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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v-un-v
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Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:49 am Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: |
meaning.. commercial, shareware.. and not freeware.. or?
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Perhaps I imagine, it's because the PC version is so crap? Who would want to inflict something that is crap on the general public?
Oh yes- windose is crap!
but otoh, perhaps WE killed it? Perhaps their server couldn't cope with all the interest generated at electro-music.com?
elektro80 wrote: |
Hmm.. who would want SC for Windows anyway? OS X will do just fine. There is no need for Windows. |
exactly
Windows R.I.P. _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:41 am Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | What is this thing with Linux? Why not a real UNIX?
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Because SC is popular in the DIY scene and I understand that for some things it's easier to add your DIY interfaces to Linux?
Because for experimental artists a laptop is already a big investment, a Mac is definately on the expensive side and Unix is way out of reach?
SC makes sense on Linux, my Linux actually came with SC installed at first boot; not as cool as coming with ChucK (we can dream) but IMHO way cooler then coming with I-tunes or Media Player. _________________ Kassen |
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Kassen
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:59 am Post subject:
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v-un-v wrote: |
Perhaps I imagine, it's because the PC version is so crap? Who would want to inflict something that is crap on the general public?
Oh yes- windose is crap!
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Yeah, good point. I imagine it might have been about development taking time and resources. As far as I know SC-Win was mainly a one man show. Maybe he got a job, girlfriend or for all I care a dog?
Windows *is* crap if you compare a running Windows box to another runing properly configured OS but.... Windows does install on basically any pc you could buy now, it has drivers for all video, sound and network cards in sight and there is a wide range of profesional audio aplications available for it. If you don't put it online and freeze the install once it works it will keep working forever and you can get days of uptime; certainly more uptime then the longest studio session you might embark on. That's worth something too.
I also disagree with majutsu that SC is dated. It's client-server model is distinctly modern, it supports on the fly coding and it's relatively mature as well as highly optimised and there are tutorials. SC in a expert's hands is a frightning thing. If you don't believe me; see how many independant realtime sine waves you can get out of SC then try the same for PD, MAX, a G2 or ChucK.... _________________ Kassen |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:13 am Post subject:
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http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html
Quote: | The analogy between cars and operating systems is not half bad, and so let me run with it for a moment, as a way of giving an executive summary of our situation today.
Imagine a crossroads where four competing auto dealerships are situated. One of them (Microsoft) is much, much bigger than the others. It started out years ago selling three-speed bicycles (MS-DOS); these were not perfect, but they worked, and when they broke you could easily fix them.
There was a competing bicycle dealership next door (Apple) that one day began selling motorized vehicles--expensive but attractively styled cars with their innards hermetically sealed, so that how they worked was something of a mystery.
The big dealership responded by rushing a moped upgrade kit (the original Windows) onto the market. This was a Rube Goldberg contraption that, when bolted onto a three-speed bicycle, enabled it to keep up, just barely, with Apple-cars. The users had to wear goggles and were always picking bugs out of their teeth while Apple owners sped along in hermetically sealed comfort, sneering out the windows. But the Micro-mopeds were cheap, and easy to fix compared with the Apple-cars, and their market share waxed.
Eventually the big dealership came out with a full-fledged car: a colossal station wagon (Windows 95). It had all the aesthetic appeal of a Soviet worker housing block, it leaked oil and blew gaskets, and it was an enormous success. A little later, they also came out with a hulking off-road vehicle intended for industrial users (Windows NT) which was no more beautiful than the station wagon, and only a little more reliable.
Since then there has been a lot of noise and shouting, but little has changed. The smaller dealership continues to sell sleek Euro-styled sedans and to spend a lot of money on advertising campaigns. They have had GOING OUT OF BUSINESS! signs taped up in their windows for so long that they have gotten all yellow and curly. The big one keeps making bigger and bigger station wagons and ORVs.
On the other side of the road are two competitors that have come along more recently.
One of them (Be, Inc.) is selling fully operational Batmobiles (the BeOS). They are more beautiful and stylish even than the Euro-sedans, better designed, more technologically advanced, and at least as reliable as anything else on the market--and yet cheaper than the others.
With one exception, that is: Linux, which is right next door, and which is not a business at all. It's a bunch of RVs, yurts, tepees, and geodesic domes set up in a field and organized by consensus. The people who live there are making tanks. These are not old-fashioned, cast-iron Soviet tanks; these are more like the M1 tanks of the U.S. Army, made of space-age materials and jammed with sophisticated technology from one end to the other. But they are better than Army tanks. They've been modified in such a way that they never, ever break down, are light and maneuverable enough to use on ordinary streets, and use no more fuel than a subcompact car. These tanks are being cranked out, on the spot, at a terrific pace, and a vast number of them are lined up along the edge of the road with keys in the ignition. Anyone who wants can simply climb into one and drive it away for free.
Customers come to this crossroads in throngs, day and night. Ninety percent of them go straight to the biggest dealership and buy station wagons or off-road vehicles. They do not even look at the other dealerships.
Of the remaining ten percent, most go and buy a sleek Euro-sedan, pausing only to turn up their noses at the philistines going to buy the station wagons and ORVs. If they even notice the people on the opposite side of the road, selling the cheaper, technically superior vehicles, these customers deride them cranks and half-wits.
The Batmobile outlet sells a few vehicles to the occasional car nut who wants a second vehicle to go with his station wagon, but seems to accept, at least for now, that it's a fringe player.
The group giving away the free tanks only stays alive because it is staffed by volunteers, who are lined up at the edge of the street with bullhorns, trying to draw customers' attention to this incredible situation. A typical conversation goes something like this:
Hacker with bullhorn: "Save your money! Accept one of our free tanks! It is invulnerable, and can drive across rocks and swamps at ninety miles an hour while getting a hundred miles to the gallon!"
Prospective station wagon buyer: "I know what you say is true...but...er...I don't know how to maintain a tank!"
Bullhorn: "You don't know how to maintain a station wagon either!" |
Very good article by mr. Stephenson. _________________ Kassen |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:24 am Post subject:
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Perhaps we are are looking at one of Raymond Lotta`s latest incarnations?
_________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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v-un-v
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Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:48 am Post subject:
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Kassen wrote: |
I also disagree with majutsu that SC is dated. |
Me too.
I had to physically hold myself from starting WWx last night- so I went to bed instead
Incidently BeOS was supposed to be for Mac originally. It's a shame that it never got there, because it is indeed a fully operational Batmobile
As for Linux, well I've stripped my Dell PC of windose, installed Ubuntu, and have left this for my kids to learn as I think it is the future.
Mac OSX is for old farts like myself who like a powerful engine under the bonnet but still like colourful windows _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:58 am Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | What is this thing with Linux? Why not a real UNIX?
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You mean something like Solaris?
It's even opensource now.
Time do ditch all those toy OS'es?
DJ
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:08 am Post subject:
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v-un-v wrote: |
Incidently BeOS was supposed to be for Mac originally. It's a shame that it never got there, because it is indeed a fully operational Batmobile
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Working from memory here but I think BeOS was originally for the BeBOX. I seem to remember this was also a ppc based system but one with two pocessors and two led graphs to indicate how hard at work those were. This must've run circles around the competition but nobody wanted to buy it (probably because it must've been expensive as well and there was no established software base). So Be ported it to off the shelf Mac's which made sense because they shared the same cpu architecture. This was another disaster because the people who had that hardware generally liked MacOS. Wether there was anything to like about the MacOS of those days is quite another matter but they did....
It went realy bad when they ported it to x86, but then also started charging companies to release programs for it. I can't realy imagine something more stupid to do in trying to establish a specialised OS but they did.
Oops.... It was kinda cool though.
Quote: |
As for Linux, well I've stripped my Dell PC of windose, installed Ubuntu, and have left this for my kids to learn as I think it is the future.
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Makes sense.
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Mac OSX is for old farts like myself who like a powerful engine under the bonnet but still like colourful windows |
OSX is for lots of people for lots of reasons.... _________________ Kassen |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:22 am Post subject:
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Kassen wrote: | Working from memory here but I think BeOS was originally for the BeBOX. |
That's right. Lots pics over at the BeBox Zone.
Quote: | ... but nobody wanted to buy it.... |
I did! However, you couldn't just buy them. You had to apply for a development box and they were in short supply. I never got one. The initial plan was something along the lines of letting an inner circle to test the OS and produce a pool of amazing apps.
We're digressing, but it seems noone minds.
DJ
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:31 am Post subject:
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DrJustice wrote: |
You mean something like Solaris?
It's even opensource now.
Time do ditch all those toy OS'es?
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Wait! Those computers look like they are even more expensive and less compattible then Mac's! I thought there were rumours of ChucK getting ported to Spark.
It'd be so cool to get one of those, then thumb my nose at Mac users for their cheap mainstream laptops! "hey, I couldn't help but notice that your pc laptop only has one ethernet port, don't you run into bandwith issues?"
Nah, that would be cruel. _________________ Kassen |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:42 am Post subject:
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Kassen wrote: | DrJustice wrote: |
You mean something like Solaris?
It's even opensource now.
Time do ditch all those toy OS'es?
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Wait! Those computers look like they are even more expensive and less compattible then Mac's! I thought there were rumours of ChucK getting ported to Spark.
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Ahh, but you see, you get Solaris for x86
And there's lots of prebuilt open source applications for it.
Quote: | It'd be so cool to get one of those, then thumb my nose at Mac users for their cheap mainstream laptops! "hey, I couldn't help but notice that your pc laptop only has one ethernet port, don't you run into bandwith issues?"
Nah, that would be cruel. |
Smugitis Platformensis could be elevated to a whole new level!
DJ
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Kassen
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:49 am Post subject:
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Thanks, DrJ! I tthought they actually tried to sell those.
Anyway, I meant there wasn't a real market, not that there weren't a few hundred people that would like to tinker... I would've liked one too.
Some looking around revealed there'sstill a version of BeOS you could buy and run now. It would make for a nice toy system still. _________________ Kassen |
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Kassen
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:52 am Post subject:
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Well, yeah, you could get a x86 version but would that have any real advantages over -say- Debian?
No that just can't compare to a 4000 euro laptop with scsi, two ethernet ports and hardly any software for it. _________________ Kassen |
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majutsu
Joined: Jun 18, 2006 Posts: 151 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:56 am Post subject:
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v-un-v wrote: |
As for Linux, well I've stripped my Dell PC of windose, installed Ubuntu, and have left this for my kids to learn as I think it is the future.
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one of the cooler ideas i've ever read!
btw this isn't about windows. all new builds are down for all 3 os. i didn't want to be arrogant or presumptious, but it seems odd that it happened days after this subforum opened. . . aug 16 in fact. also found j mc whining on another forum defensively about ChucK interest. either their server crashed or they got really defensive/upset about all the attention, which i can't understand. sourceforge only showing the old 2005 build for osx. they say they don't support linux now. http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=54622
didn't supercollider used to be commercial? maybe they figure they should go commercial again. which again goes against the open source spirit. my favorite of the big 3 os is linux, because i really like the idea of open source, global development, and customizibility for individual needs.
i actually know, kassen, that sc is a good program, and still have the linux and windows versions on my systems. i was just angry with this stupid decision right now. _________________ All phenomena are atoms in association and dissociation. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:02 am Post subject:
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You're right kassen - home users are probably better off with a good Linux distro.
One of those days I'd like to try out x86 Solaris though - I have a nostalgic affection for it after having spent many years with it running on a number of SPARC boxes - it never missed a beat, always did what you expected and was easy to use.
DJ
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:27 am Post subject:
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majutsu wrote: | i didn't want to be arrogant or presumptious, but it seems odd that it happened days after this subforum opened. . . aug 16 in fact. |
Realy? why would that affect anything? Our coleauges at EM411 and the no-future board have been all over SC for a long time as well.
Quote: | also found j mc whining on another forum defensively about ChucK interest. |
Realy? I don't think SC has anything to be insecure about. It works, it works well, it's stable (I'v seen it used in instalations that ran for weeks) and it's more efficient then just about anything else.
I mean; I think I'm personally to blame for the atention for ChucK around here but even I have always said SC is preferable in many cases. It's generally known that ChucK users are slightly funny in their heads. Do you have a link tot his "whining"? isn't it more like talk on Logic being OT in a Ableton forum?
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either their server crashed or they got really defensive/upset about all the attention, which i can't understand. sourceforge only showing the old 2005 build for osx. |
I rate a server crash as a lot more likely. I don't think five or six people on EM count as a big surge in intrest.
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they say they don't support linux now.
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http://packages.debian.org/unstable/sound/supercollider
Looks fine to me or is march terribly out of date already?
Quote: | didn't supercollider used to be commercial? maybe they figure they should go commercial again. which again goes against the open source spirit. my favorite of the big 3 os is linux, because i really like the idea of open source, global development, and customizibility for individual needs.
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Could be... it's a good program, it's worth some money.
That would probably mean a fork... Could be interesting.
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i actually know, kassen, that sc is a good program, and still have the linux and windows versions on my systems. i was just angry with this stupid decision right now. |
Hmmmmm, SC is a established mature project maintained by very clever people I don't think they suddenly start doing "stupid" things. Let's see how it all turns out. _________________ Kassen |
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majutsu
Joined: Jun 18, 2006 Posts: 151 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:40 am Post subject:
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Kassen wrote: |
Hmmmmm, SC is a established mature project maintained by very clever people I don't think they suddenly start doing "stupid" things. Let's see how it all turns out. |
agreed, i've way overstepped the data available to me and am emotionally reading way too much into it. i think it's time to chill. maybe they have a universal version open source version up their sleeves.
as for your debian link, that's not source forge. that's the 2005 version for debian on a debian site, put together in march this year. BUT thanks for the link! i needed this. thanks again.
here is j mc whining to chuck users. he popped up in a chuck discussion on lambda getting all pissed off in a dignified way about people lauding chuck's handling of time, etc
"SuperCollider
I am the author of SuperCollider which is also a programming language for real time audio synthesis. A number of misstatements about SuperCollider have been made in the papers on ChucK.
SuperCollider is no less concurrent than ChucK, and is no less "strongly-timed" than ChucK. Every thread in SuperCollider carries with it a time reference in a certain clock base. Clocks can run at different tempi. ChucK doesn't handle tempo.
// fork two concurrent threads in SuperCollider:
fork { 4.do { "A".postln; 0.2.wait } };
fork { 8.do { "B".postln; 0.1.wait } };
Indeed, a number of claims about ChucK seem to be based on its limitations. Chuck runs its threads inside the audio calculation loop which means that any long large calculations will stall the audio and cause a glitch. SuperCollider is based on a client/server model which decouples event generation from audio synthesis.
Chuck lacks higher order or anonymous functions, whereas SuperCollider has closures, map/filter/fold, currying, list comprehensions, tail call optmization, etc.By James McCartney "
sounded pretty defensive and peevish to me. it's clear he has ChucK on the brain and it's forums on watch maybe the mighty Ge has j mc a little scared or jealous lol. _________________ All phenomena are atoms in association and dissociation. |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:05 am Post subject:
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majutsu wrote: |
here is j mc whining to chuck users. he popped up in a chuck discussion on lambda getting all pissed off in a dignified way about people lauding chuck's handling of time, etc |
Brian, can we stop this now, please? If James McCartney were to join EM, personally I would be gobsmaked and would do my best to make him feel at home. This is nitpicking so please will you stop it now?
majutsu wrote: | i think it's time to chill. |
I think so too.
Thankyou. _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:11 am Post subject:
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Ok, but that comment is quite old. It might be somewhat "defensive" but I think you are reading too much in it. Arguably the papers he was comenting on could be seen as "agressive" as well if that's what you are looking for.
Anyway, I don't see any big link between that, our new fora and the windows version of SC disaperaring.
this is still up;
http://sonenvir.at/downloads/sc3/sc3-win/
With a build from 4 days ago but it seems you need to be a member.?
Crossing posts with V-un-V but I agree; let's not create a image of a SC/CK rivalry here because that would be quite silly. _________________ Kassen |
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