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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
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 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:43 am Post subject:
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max certainly has more capabilities, but patching and repatching can be way more time consuming than with a G2.
I have created a couple of high level set of subpatches (modules which look nord modular-ish) in max to see if it would work - and in fact it can make the environment closer to the nord. but this is a time consuming task, and max does not work on my pc (blue screen of death even after months of cycling74 support).
/Dasz |
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Kassen
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | ....I've come to the conclusion that digital modular synthesis within a closed hardware environment like the G2 is ultimately a waste of time, as all your work is bound to the life-cycle of the given hardware. |
If it's any consolation; I made a similar jump for similar reasons a while ago and I found that the NM wasn't a waste of time at all. Even if mine would catch fire right now and all patches would be lost I'd lose very little since you get to keep the most important bit; the experience gained in how things work and how *you* want things to work.
Anyway, I'm quite curious to hear what platforms you are getting into and why you picked those.
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject:
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| You can feel less guilty about using Pd (pure-data). I'm trying to fill in the holes that I *want* the G2 to do, by using Pd patches. Limited in usefulness, and I need a very clear vision before starting a patch, since the fast-patch world of the G2 is different from the down&dirty world of Pd. However, I am learning more to use macros & discovering the existing libraries out there already. |
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Kassen
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject:
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| jksuperstar wrote: | | You can feel less guilty about using Pd (pure-data). I'm trying to fill in the holes that I *want* the G2 to do, by using Pd patches. Limited in usefulness, and I need a very clear vision before starting a patch, since the fast-patch world of the G2 is different from the down&dirty world of Pd. However, I am learning more to use macros & discovering the existing libraries out there already. |
I think that what makes the Modulars what they are are the choices made in what choices to offer. PD and MAX take more time to deal with because they offer far more choices.
Simplified graphical systems are great and very easy to work with if the choices offered are the ones that are relevant to your ideas but I think it's good to wonder how much of the end result follows from your choices and how much comes from the ones offered. The opposite holds true too; the more open a system is the more it will force you to conciously considder exactly what you want.
While planning ahead takes time that isn't spend on actually making music I think it's quite interesting and indeed somewhat pleasant to be forced to conciously make all choices and so conciously examine your ideas on what you want and how it should work.
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject:
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Well said - Kassen!  |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject:
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I dont think the g2 is obsolete hardware..its just limited in a view areas that cut the usability as jam kexboard and controler for other things...
but in the end its wright that the G2 and its associated patch format change was a taktikal mistake from clavias side..
They should have done the promised update for the Nm1...and doing the G2 later... but patch compatible... So it created a big split in the user base.
The problem was that the userbase was crying for midiout modules..and the only way to fullfill that wish was a new hardware..the cry for midi modules was so loud that the more likely wishes for the NM1 like recordable sequencers and a performance mode was wiped away...
So ..i got the G2 because i wanted this other improovements that clearly wont happen on the NM1...but...
this wanted improovements for the NM1 are not completed in the G2...
There have to be another update!...
otherwise i would agree with tim...
Its however to earlie to say for sure that there wont be an update...
We have to wait what happens after clavias next move...
when they dont find the time for an update than...it probably never happens.. so end of 2007 seems to me like a latest point where the machine needs a little polish...
From the hardware side it can be a niche product with quite a long life cycle... the variation buttons allow some serious advanced keyboard playing... Things like the often wished parameter exclusion in a variation change would improove the live playability of the G2 even further and turning it into a serious controler for external hardware...
The most useless function of the G2 are the midimodules for me...
Its just not really ready.. at least the practical handling of the modules in session situations is a pain in the ass... its better to use the midimodules rarely and have special marked patches for them...
there is no patch related midi out off switch for example...
You find the use for that when you have to silent the midioutput of a patch that sends with 8 midimodules, quickly in a stage situation... :-/
I am a bit afraid that clavias next produkt might adress again the wishes i still have for the g2...
means a machine with additonal sequencer and interactiv variation/mutation/master features plus sound beefing stage... A keyboarder orientated super synth... that can load g2 and nm1 patches  |
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Robby
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Location: SF, CA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject:
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I might feel differently if I had the XL, but I really appreciate the G2
as a lightweight portable & flexible MIDI controller that also has
a very decent configurable sound engine on board. It's not the best
or most flexible engine available, but it's the best one that comes with
a keyboard style controller attached that I know of.
I often use it to control software based environments on my laptop,
as well as other modular environments (Eventide, Kyma) that don't
have controllers attached.
When I perform I sometimes need to bring other things
along (laptop, Kyma, Eventide) and sometimes don't,
but I always bring at least the G2. |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
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Location: victoria, canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject:
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Robby, I like this post even (slightly) better than Kassen's (sorry Kassen).
In the end it is a matter of tradeoffs, and a very personal matter that is. This is what makes each of us different (what we are into from a modular point of view) which makes it difficult for a single solution to exist. It is human nature. A more flexible solution is more difficult than a less flexible solution.
I think Clavia needs to fix bugs which affect all of us - period. And we should be seeing the updates to bugs more regularly. The G2 system has more bugs than the NM Classic (does anyone agree?), so the end bug count of the system should be on par if not better than NM Classic.
But when it comes to new features it must be a difficult thing for them to decide on, as someone will be very happy while another person will be disappointed.
I have too often tried (unsuccesfully) to make the G2 system the end-all-be-all of my setup, but it cannot be this way as painful (aka disappointing) as it is. I am now expanding my horizons using external tools to fill in the voids I have been expecting and hoping for from the G2/NM1 system since I first got into it many years ago.
Just some thoughts.
/Dasz |
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dasz
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Kassen
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject:
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| dasz wrote: | Robby, I like this post even (slightly) better than Kassen's (sorry Kassen).
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Oh, that's fine, I understand, I've actually been into hardware interfaces a lot lately. My latest sequencer project is build a round a arcade joystick and a controler for a Playstation music game. Lots of controlers, lots of very hard questions, lots of fun as well.
Basically it's the same issue (to me at least, right now). I'm getting far away from traditional musical interfaces to intentionally face questions on how to controll things.
I very much agree with your observations on interface design and I'd like to add that a perfectly consistent intrface would only work for a extremely homogenous back-end. That sounds quite boring to me...
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dasz
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject:
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| Code: | | I very much agree with your observations on interface design and I'd like to add that a perfectly consistent intrface would only work for a extremely homogenous back-end. That sounds quite boring to me... |
Totally! So many times things are made too consistent for the wrong reasons.
It's all a balance.
/Dasz |
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:31 am Post subject:
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While I am very pleased with the G2 as it is and haven't had the urge to check the clavia site daily for a year or so, this thread aroused my 'will Clavia have a new xmas surprise again for us G2 owners?' feelings again. Not good  , as I don't believe it will happen. Update-Awaiting-Syndrome is quite as irrational as GAS, only it cannot be soothed by maxing out a credit card at the music store. Oh, the sheer hardships we Claviasts have to endure.... 
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dasz
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:18 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | 'will Clavia have a new xmas surprise again for us G2 owners?' |
Based on the recent history, the last clavia surprise for xmas was the G2 itself (ok, I was not suprised  ). The OS's have appeared at trade shows. I am not holding my breath this time.
| Quote: | | Update-Awaiting-Syndrome |
Yes, this syndrome (also known as indefinitus-constipatus) can be spotted by someone's who's cheeks are filled with air and face is turning blue because he or she has not been breathing new air.
| Quote: | | Oh, the sheer hardships we Claviasts have to endure.... |
We're a lot better off than the Harmannists and until recently the Waldorfians. The Waldorians are holding their breath as new models have been announced!
| Code: | | only it cannot be soothed by maxing out a credit card at the music store. |
Maybe some new Waldorf with knobs and screens and tilting panels (this is speculation based on a visit to the new Waldorf site) could alleviate this syndrome.
I, unfortunately cannot go out and max out my card on gear (as much as I'd want a DSI Evolver, or Waldorf XT), as someone else in my household takes care of that
/Dasz |
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mosc
Site Admin
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:21 am Post subject:
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I would hope a new release would include a fixed filter bank. This is an essential module that was included on the very first Moog Modulars. The NM1 has this module even. 
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my music and other stuff |
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:38 am Post subject:
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| dasz wrote: | | Quote: | | 'will Clavia have a new xmas surprise again for us G2 owners?' |
Based on the recent history, the last clavia surprise for xmas was the G2 itself (ok, I was not suprised ). The OS's have appeared at trade shows. I am not holding my breath this time.
| Quote: | | Oh, the sheer hardships we Claviasts have to endure.... |
We're a lot better off than the Harmannists and until recently the Waldorfians. The Waldorians are holding their breath as new models have been announced!
/Dasz |
The demo software version was the 2004 xmas present if I recall correctely, and regarding the hardships, I might have forgotten a smiley there
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dorremifasol
Joined: Sep 28, 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:51 am Post subject:
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Please excuse my ignorance and the out of topic, what's the difference between a filter and a filterbank? What can be used for? I still don't get the point. I'm learning new things everyday from this forum.
By the way, do not hesitate to correct my English if I say something wrong, I'm still learning too. 
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windchill
Joined: Jan 07, 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:23 am Post subject:
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maybe we should all send an email to Clavia at the north pole asking them if they could possibly, if we are very good, bring an update down our respective chimmneys. Perhaps if enough emails get sent it might generate some activity by the little helpers.  |
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jksuperstar
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject:
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I'd suggest that most "fixed architecture" instrument owners are not as update/upgrade savvy as modular owners. It's the mind set that has driven people to build giant modular racks, expanding into new cabinets because trying something new & unheard is half the fun. So, of course, even though things are digital, we still want our G2's to have some form of new cabinet, new module, new feature, or some form of new fun. So, you are all forgiven of your "downfalls", GAS, and infernal upgrade constipation.
What we all need is a network/cluster system that's based on standard hardware, open source software, and Gig-E networks. Readily available & constantly upgradeable hardware, expandability only limited by your wallet, and access to the internal mechanics so you can become your own limitation. Oh, and a very malleable interface that has some sort of EEG connection to figure out what exactly it is the user wants. |
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blue hell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject:
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| dorremifasol wrote: | | what's the difference between a filter and a filterbank? |
A filter bank is a collection of filters in one module, in this particular case it is the NM Classic filter bank that was not implemented on the G2  . It looks like this, in its Classic 3.03 incarnation :
that is, like a graphical equalizer.
But other people think that it should not be like this at all, but it should be more like the Moog filter bank. The filter bank is an ongoing source for inspiration
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Robby
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject:
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Can't you get something equivalent to or better than a
fixed filter bank by using a number of Peak Filters?
You've already got an N-band fully parametric EQ on the G2,
so why do you need graphic also?
That said, you've also got the vocoder and the back half of it
is essentially a graphic EQ - it shouldn't be too hard to split off
the analysis front end & replace it with static controls to make
a graphic EQ ...
But really, all I want from Clavia is for them to fix the damn bugs
relating to the use of the delay memories in the string osc and
the comb filters. They could have one of the best platforms for
physical modeling around if it weren't for those problems. |
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject:
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| jksuperstar wrote: |
What we all need is a network/cluster system that's based on standard hardware, open source software, and Gig-E networks. Readily available & constantly upgradeable hardware, expandability only limited by your wallet, and access to the internal mechanics so you can become your own limitation. Oh, and a very malleable interface that has some sort of EEG connection to figure out what exactly it is the user wants. |
Yeah, I have a few of those too, they are great! It's like Chrismas all year round
I'm sorry, I don't mean to flame the G2 again but realy; this is the seond time here that I see a widhlist of features for a ideal version of a future G2 that looks exactly like the spec sheet of PureData, SuperCollider, Csound or my own favourite ChucK.
Except for the brainwave stuff but I'm sure you could put that on the wishlist
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dasz
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject:
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| Fozzie wrote: |
The demo software version was the 2004 xmas present if I recall correctely, and regarding the hardships, I might have forgotten a smiley there |
Fozzie you're right, the G2demo came out around xmas! I was being somewhat sarcastic about the hardship, I should have put a smiley in there too. I was not taking it too seriously
/Dasz |
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dorremifasol
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject:
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Jan, thank you very much for the clarification
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Charlie
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:35 am Post subject:
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why not a G3 instead ?
- sample module (yes, it's nessesary)
- real wavetable osc (with drawing the waves, cfr evolver, absynth)
- more generic quality modules,... sorry but g2 sounds naturally cold an unmusical (exemples: more modelled filters: good combs, squelchy-liquid filters, distorsion units, physical models,...)
- total integration, audio and midi on usb2
- more midi modules
- drawing LFOs and env
- more DSP power (polyphony, more multitimbral parts and most important:sound quality)
- polyphonic step seqs
- encapsulation of modules on editor
- little keyboard with pads à la electribe and knobs (g1 ones), why not a big colour display à la roland VA synth xt (to use the synth without a PC)
- more pro effects modules
- I'd like some real analogue filters modules inside the synth (look at spectralis, waldorf Q+,....) 
- more colours for modules on editor
- the ability to choose sound quality of different multi parts |
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mosc
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:04 am Post subject:
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| Robby wrote: | Can't you get something equivalent to or better than a
fixed filter bank by using a number of Peak Filters?
You've already got an N-band fully parametric EQ on the G2,
so why do you need graphic also? |
You can patch up something that will serve as a fixed filter bank, but you end up with a mess and the result is most often unsatisfactory. The G2 doesn't have an N-band parametric EQ, unless I'm missing something. If you do build an emualtion of a Moog 914 filter bank, for example, you use over 1/3 of a G2 slot's CPU and 40% of the memory. See: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-12691.html
Beginning synthesists seem overly concerned about the waveform of the oscillators - thinking this is the most important aspect of synthesis. IMHO, waveforms aren't very important, it's the changing of the waveform over the range of the instrument that gives it it's character. Consider a violin, or clarinet for example. The body of the instrument acts to filter the sound differently for each pitch - so every note has a different waveform - even though the excitation doesn't change too much (stings are saws - brass are squares - generally speaking). The body resonance is often referred to as a formant. The formant filter is traditionally implemented with a fixed filter bank on modular synthesizers.
The fixed filter bank differs from a typical graphical equalizer because the frequencies of the filters are selected by the designer for their musical qualities whereas in the EQ, they are spread at certain octave or partial octave spacings - like 1/3 octave.
Here is a picture of a very early Moog Modular - 1965. Note the fixed filter bank in the center of the top row. Moog realized from the start that this was a very essential module. Too bad Hans Nordelius has yet to figure it out. 
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