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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Hanging Notes on G2 Engine
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Derek Cook



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:41 pm    Post subject: Hanging Notes on G2 Engine Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello all.

I was on a Pure Floyd gig Sunday night, where my beloved Nord G2 is used for lead synths, including the lead on the intro for "Shine On You Crazy Diamond".

And I had some strange behavior on that patch in that the synth appeared to be working properly but it didn't appear to be releasing notes when I released them on the keyboard. I noticed before the start of the gig, and reset the unit, which appear to stop it for a while, but it then started again. All other rack units in the same MIDI THRU chain (before and after the Nord) were fine, although I did change the lead before the NORD as a precaution.

It's a mono patch so there was only ever one note sounding, so I managed to get through the intro without the sticky-ness being too obvious (the missus didn't notice Very Happy Shocked ).

In between the intro and the next solo I turned the unit off and back on again, but on the solo, the same thing was still happening.

Rather strangely all other patches were perfect when I quickly checked on headphones between songs (and before needing them).

Even more strangely, with all the units back in the studio the problem didn't happen once last night. I had all units on for four hours and played the "shine on" intro every now and then, and it was fine.

Given only one synth was affected and then just one patch and a failure for a note off command (it seems) to be recognised, I don't suspect MIDI leads.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe in hindsight I should have also powered off/reset the Novation Remote61 keyboard that was driving the Nord, as maybe it was failing to send a Note Off command. However on that particular song the keyboard is split and the lower half was driving my Motif ES Rack with no problems.

So has anybody ever seen this behavior on the Nord before and any clues as to what to check?

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could it be Engine also receives Midi from another source? Some other gear in the set up is sending Midi out. Clavia synths are known to freeze sometimes when receiving Midi, mostly when booting.

Or the Engine doesn't like The Floyd Wink

Wout
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I used to do prfs that used a midi CC to activate the midi hold function (like sustain pedal).

I stopped because the technique often resulted in voices sticking after loading new patches into the same slot. Power cycling would fix it though.
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Derek Cook



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Could it be Engine also receives Midi from another source? Some other gear in the set up is sending Midi out. Clavia synths are known to freeze sometimes when receiving Midi, mostly when booting.

Or the Engine doesn't like The Floyd Wink

Wout


Hi, well I have three MIDI sources, Roland FC200, Yamaha EX5 and Novation Remote61, but essentially they are merged in that order via the EX5 and Remote61 functions that echoe MIDI IN to MIDI out. That data then goes to my rack units via a MIDI thru chain of Motif ES Rack, Yamaha FS1R, Nord G2, Yamaha A4000 and then Laptop(with MIDI I/F and running NI B4) - in that order.

Everything other than the Nord was behaving, which is why I don't suspect MIDI leads, etc.

It behaved perfectly on the gig last night!!!!!!!

One thing I've noticed, which I'm sure didn't happen before, is that in the studio it now occasionally loses the USB connection with the editor, although quitting the editor and restarting cures that. I just thought I'd mention it in case this combination has been seen before.

And of course my little red box loves the 'Floyd! Very Happy Shocked It's the perfect choice for recreating the VCS3 and Moog sounds, and it does it very well.

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Derek Cook



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:07 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Grrrr Sad

It happened to me again last night. Switching off and leaving the Nord off for a period of time would only cure it temporarily before it started again.

In the end and out of exasperation, I ran the Updater program on the laptop I use to run my NI B4 and which has a backup of all of my patch data for all of my synths!

That seemed to cure it.

Bizarre......

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Still the same patch and only that one?

Could it be something with MIDI overload ... relatively ... internally ... ?

I think I do see issues with the G2 when it's processing loads of internal MIDI from one slot to another, but this is after a couple days of continues operation, I never had hanging notes as such but the synth will go silent or stop responding to MIDI and stop sending it, stuff like that. There seems to be a relation with how much internal MIDI is going on and how soon this happens, but always at least a couple of days.

Especially having MIDI "move knobs" i.e. a knob assigned to a fast changing MIDI CC seems to be troublesome, maybe cutting the MIDI rate at such a point would help you.

All this is a bit vague intentionally, it seems to be a matter of chances.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Derek Cook



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Still the same patch and only that one?

Could it be something with MIDI overload ... relatively ... internally ... ?

I think I do see issues with the G2 when it's processing loads of internal MIDI from one slot to another, but this is after a couple days of continues operation, I never had hanging notes as such but the synth will go silent or stop responding to MIDI and stop sending it, stuff like that. There seems to be a relation with how much internal MIDI is going on and how soon this happens, but always at least a couple of days.

Especially having MIDI "move knobs" i.e. a knob assigned to a fast changing MIDI CC seems to be troublesome, maybe cutting the MIDI rate at such a point would help you.

All this is a bit vague intentionally, it seems to be a matter of chances.


Hi, Jan

No, I tried about four different patches last night and the same problem was on all of them. I need to check, but I don't think any of the patches fully load the Nord, and apart from Pitchbend and volume, they aren't set up for a lot of CCs.

So I'm baffled.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You also mentioned the USB loosing connection ... maybe this is an indication of the main processor in the G2 getting too busy. The main processor also deals with MIDI, so there could be a connection between these indeed.

Could you somehow reduce the amount of MIDI the G2 is seeing?

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
You also mentioned the USB loosing connection ... maybe this is an indication of the main processor in the G2 getting too busy. The main processor also deals with MIDI, so there could be a connection between these indeed.

Could you somehow reduce the amount of MIDI the G2 is seeing?


I'll have to look into that .... Although I'm puzzled as to if it is an overload, why a power off and on (several actually) only cures it for a short period, but a complete OS reset yesterday did (although that may be coincidental).

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Derek Cook wrote:
(although that may be coincidental).


Don't know either, but from what you wrote you seem to also have had periods of good working without reflashing the OS ... it also seems odd that the OS could be in a state of working half or something ... it's puzzling.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
g ... it's puzzling.


As if something rolls the dice I mean.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Agreed! It's really puzzling. But I also had that instance a while back of losing the complete G2 until I re-FLASHED the OS.

It worries me as I'm very reliant on the G2 for the synth sounds of Pink Floyd and the "law of sod" says it's going to wrong in a big way on stage at some point. I need to program alternatives into my other synths as a standby.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I do loose USB connection at times, again after days of continues operation, but I've never needed to reflash the OS. Sometimes diusconnectiongf and reconnecting USB will bring it back, usually rebooting the G2 is needed and occasionally I'll need to reboot the computer as well. I guess this means that both the synth OS and the driver (or windows) are able to fuck things up.

It's kind of odd that when you can't connect to the G2 anymore you're still able to reflash it ... I mean that needs a connection too. So it doesn''t seem to be thye USB malfunction that some people experienced, for which the synth has to be repaired (whatever it is they do to it then, but some of the USB hardware bits seem to be involved).

And yes Murphy will hit you, or Sod, whoever comes first Wink

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Derek Cook



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It behaved fine at last night's gig! It was a good gig although I was on edge as the keyboard player that I replaced was in the audience. Although I think he got blown away by the synth sounds (amongst other things)!

The OS problem I had was that the synth appeared to have gotten itself into OS update mode without me doing anything. That only happened during practice, but it made me wary enough to get all the G2 tools onto a laptop that now goes about with me when I gig (it runs NI B4 in the gig - but it's also there for "disaster recovery"!).

So all I can do again right now is keep an eye on things. If it happens again, I'm going to change the MIDI cables for the spares that I carry just so I can eliminate that.

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Derek Cook



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Happened to me again on a gig on Saturday night! Sad

This time in our first set (the songs where the Nord is used):

  • Shine On You Crazy Diamond - the Nord worked perfectly (and the Nord is perfect for the synth leads)
  • Wish You Were Here - this is where I noticed the problem. Just muted the Nord Audio on my line mixer. Switched Nord off/on at the end of the song
  • Hey You - Same problem (Nord is used for the "worms" sound after the loud part of the song).
  • Another Brick In The Wall, Parts 1 and 2 - Same problem (Nord is used for the synth drone on the intro and exit.


So in the break, I checked all the leads, re-flashed the OS as I couldn't think of anything else to do (and it appeared to clear the problem last time)

In the second half

  • On the Run - used for the "synth cars" (whilst my PLG150-AN is doing the sequence), here the problem was present again. Switched off/on at end of song
  • Money - I use the Nord to do a lead (Moog) solo in place of the sax solo on the original. But I didn't trust the Nord at this point as there needs to be gaps in the phrases, so I just did the solo on my Yamaha EX5's Rhodes Piano patch.
  • Any Colour You Like - A very prominent synth lead. I decided to chance the Nord at this point, as I thought I could mask any hanging notes by the way I play it and just mute the Nord Audio at the end. Now at this point the Nord appeared to be working perfectly again. To be sure I left a few deliberate gaps in the playing! Shocked
  • Brain Damage - I play a legato solo on the Nord after the second chorus. Again it was working perfectly.


So Re-FLASHING the OS didn't seem to cure it this time, so maybe that was just coincidence before that I did it and it cleared up.

But the behavior above of there being a problem over many songs (and many resets) and there then not being a problem has left me baffled. As I mentioned, this has happened now a few times, which knocks my confidence in the Nord. So much so, that I'm thinking of setting up my Arturia Minimoog softsynth on my laptop (used for the NI B4) as a backup.

After the gig, I had the Nord powered on in my studio all day yesterday, and it was perfect again every time I tried it.

So, I'm still very puzzled, and this hanging note behavior is very bizarre. About the only thing I didn't try was changing the main MIDI lead between my keyboards and the rack. However, all the other modules (in the same chain) are fine, so I very much doubt it's that.

I did think that maybe it was the venue as I recollected it now happening twice in this particular place. But a quick check on the dates I've posted on this thread and our gig history, shows that it's happened in at least one other place.

But I still love my Nord. It's one of my favourite toys.

Time for an email to Clavia I think.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I still have the feeling it's all about to much Midi data at the same moment. Clavia gear is known to be very sensitive to that, special the NordLead3.

What Midi could be received by the Engine at the same time?

Wout
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Derek Cook



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Only data generated by the FC300, EX5 and Remote61 - exactly the same gear as what I have in my studio.

Just thinking about it further, and trying to think about what is different between how I set things up live and how I set things up in the studio, the only differences are the MIDI leads. The configuration I wire them in is the same, but the leads are different. As mentioned, I don't suspect the leads as all other units in the same chain are fine - and I can't see how a bad lead could affect a note off command on just device on one MIDI channel. Although could active sensing be helping the other units and not the Nord? I'll need to check it's MIDI implementation.

The other thing that is different is how the Remote61 is powered. In the studio the Remote61 is USB powered from the my music computer. On stage it is from a wall wart PSU. I do wish equipment manufacturers would give us proper PSUs in the kit!

I mention the latter, as I had another problem on Saturday before starting, which was that the Remote61 did not power on first of all, and it looked like a dodgy power connection on the wire from the PSU to the Remote61. I took the precaution of buying some batteries before the gig itself (as the Remote61 can also be battery powered).

And thinking about it, one thing that did concern me as well on Saturday, even after putting the batteries into the Remote61 is that even without me doing anything, I could see some form of MIDI activity just on the front panel indicators of the racks, which is unusual.

So, I've brought a new PSU today for the Remote61. I'll try soak testing that later.

So maybe your theory about it being MIDI related is correct. Could it be the Remote61 and a dodgy power connection be working against me but in a way that just affects the Nord?

When you say that Clavia gear is known to be sensitive to MIDI, what do you mean by that? Do you have any specific examples.

One other thing I think I'll do (assuming the Nord Responds to it), is program an "all notes off" command onto one of the Remote61 buttons. Maybe that will help me control it and get through a gig if it happens again.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Derek Cook wrote:
... When you say that Clavia gear is known to be sensitive to MIDI, what do you mean by that? Do you have any specific examples. ...
On my NordLeads the 'Panic' button is a very important one. Sometimes, not all of the times, the notes get stuck when closing down an application on the computer, like CuBase; uploading SysEx to the synth; playing two keyboards at the same time... And it's always the notes, not something else.

Wout
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi, thanks for that.

Well I had the synths on all day yesterday, including a new PSU for the Remote61, and all was fine.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi, again.

Well the Nord behaved at the gig last night, but there's three more to get through this weekend.....

But there's a definite ghost in my system, as I had the MIDI activity lights flashing intermittently again when I wasn't doing anything.

I changed all the MIDI leads and that didn't change anything.

Whether it's related to the Nord problem or not I don't know, but it's baffling.

I'm going to put MIDIOX onto my laptop today, which is at the end of the MIDI chain, so that I can see what's happening if it happens again.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Derek Cook wrote:
... But there's a definite ghost in my system, as I had the MIDI activity lights flashing intermittently again when I wasn't doing anything. ...
My NordLead2 sends Midi because one of the pots is not stable anymore when heating up by the Power Supply.

But yours is a Engine, isn't it?

Wout
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Derek Cook wrote:
But there's a definite ghost in my system, as I had the MIDI activity lights flashing intermittently again when I wasn't doing anything.

Whether it's related to the Nord problem or not I don't know, but it's baffling.

I'm going to put MIDIOX onto my laptop today, which is at the end of the MIDI chain, so that I can see what's happening if it happens again.


I would believe that it is related. It looks like some part of your MIDI gear is spitting out unwanted MIDI messages intermittently. Which is the first module in your chain that shows unusual MIDI activity? The unwanted MIDI is coming from further up the chain.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Derek Cook wrote:
I had a disaster at a gig a few weeks ago in that a punter got too close (it was a small venue with no stage) and beer was spilt over my keyboards. I got though the gig with two partly functioning keyboards and spent the next day stripping them down and getting them working for the next one that night, which I made with thirty minutes to spare!


Shocked Was it after this incident that your stuck note problems began?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

varice wrote:
Derek Cook wrote:
I had a disaster at a gig a few weeks ago in that a punter got too close (it was a small venue with no stage) and beer was spilt over my keyboards. ...
Shocked Was it after this incident that your stuck note problems began?
From which post are you quoting? Maybe a switch in threads?

I didn't notice the story about the incident, because I surely replied making the remark 'why Jan is so interested in this subject'. His family name is Punter. Rolling Eyes

Wout
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
varice wrote:
Derek Cook wrote:
I had a disaster at a gig a few weeks ago in that a punter got too close (it was a small venue with no stage) and beer was spilt over my keyboards. ...
Shocked Was it after this incident that your stuck note problems began?
From which post are you quoting? Maybe a switch in threads?

I didn't notice the story about the incident, because I surely replied making the remark 'why Jan is so interested in this subject'. His family name is Punter. Rolling Eyes

Wout


Laughing Congratulations Wout, I was waiting to see who would mention the "punter" reference first!

Yes, quoted from another thread here:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-29421.html

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