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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Byebye, G2
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:42 am    Post subject: Byebye, G2 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know it seems strange to post to a web forum on christmas day, but I've been hauled up in my appartement with a very bad flu for some days now, and have started to become seriously bored here -hence the pursuit of any kind of possible activity.

I just meant to inform you that I am no longer a member of the G2 user community -I sold my G2s off during the last past months. As much as I enjoyed this synth as a experimenting and learning tool, I never got anything happening on it that inspired me musically -and I tried long and hard. So I finally followed my instincts and went for the real-analogue route -and all is well now.

I know the digital-analogue discussion is a tired old cliché -but every cliché inarguably has a core of truth. In fact, clichés are nothing but truths, just repeated ad nauseam without any further growth -because there is no room for such growth. The D/A discussion always reaches this dead-end, because people ultimately try to root their opinions in scientific objectivity. But you cannot discuss the value of musical instruments (synths) in this manner, because music itself (like all artforms) has no roots in scientific objectivity either. There is no scientific way to measure art. Hence the discussions rant and rave on inconclusively until they become a cliché and the intelligent people try to avoid them.

So it is not my intention to fire up this discussion yet another time. I just want to say that I hear a considerable difference between D and A and this difference matters greatly to my musical needs. And I do feel quite strongly that there is such a thing as the "Clavia trademark sound", which even the G2 -albeit all its flexibility- cannot surpass. It is somewhat ironic that as much as I truly love the conceptual aspects of all Clavia gear, their trademark sound is not to my liking.

I want to take this opportunity to thank everybody here -the G2 community is simply incredible, and I have learned so much here! You folks are just great. Honestly, I still come and lurk here regularly -there's so much to learn.

Happy christmas and best wishes to you all.

tim
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm glad you found your way Tim and hope you'll recover quickly from your flu.

Personally I'd only go the anolog way again when it reaches the compactness and versatility of the current D gear, but I think you are right about A gear sounding better.

A merry christmas to you, and all reading this.

Jan.
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yup..this makes sense to me

the emperor's new clothes

it is always folly to use digital to usurp analog..it will never happen..a total lost cause

and , for what it is worth, as a human with 2 working ears, the clavia sound has always sounded very 'digital'..you can hear the numbers being crunched..it detracts from the meaning of the music [unless the self-referential use of technlogy is part of the meaning of your music]

is that a good thing ?

it could be fine..for minimal techno or bell sounds or space whooshes or trance arepeggios...

and even that is cool..just very limited..and a little '20th century'

worth 5,000 ?

better than some softsynths ?

an illusion ?

or, is it really just the musical equivalent of tweaking the registry in windows ?

is it a synth you can patch forever, but the musical results are dubious ?

anyway, throw tomatoes at me if i am all wet

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seraph
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Byebye, G2 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shoshin wrote:
I finally followed my instincts and went for the real-analogue route -and all is well now.

could you tell us more about "the real-analogue route" Question it's not a route I am interested in but I am just curious Very Happy

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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While I don't share your views on the A/D thing, or on the character of the so-called Clavia sound, I do respect you for them.

Tim. Thanks for your excellent contributions to our forum and to our community. I wish you the best of health and the best of musical experiences.

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zynthetix



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry to hear about the flu, that sucks. Can you specify what analog gear you got or are getting? I am on the digital side of things, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate and love analog gear. (its essential to know the roots, plus theres a different design genius behind those too. I find the Wright brothers' airplane equally amazing as the Blackbird jet.)
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egw
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have and love both digital and analog synths. To me the character of the synth has more to do with the features, control layout, and uniqueness and flexibility of the sound, not whether it's analog or digital. Each instrument is unique. Some are easy for me to make a musical connection with others just don't do it for me, even though other people may rave about them.
It's not about achieving a certain premeditated sound, it's about finding a source of musical expression that you can be intimate with. It might be a $3000 synth or it might be a circuit bent speak&spell that you picked up at a garage sale for $2. Discussions about the techology are fun and can even be inspiring, but ultimately each of us has to find our own path.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for your kind comments, folks.

My flu is a bit better today. Slowly improving...

I guess it was my mistake to expect something from the G2 that it isn't. And if I could afford it, I would have kept it just for what it is: an incredibly flexible sonic tool which is incredibly easy to use at the same time. And it is so compact too. I mean -my back is already creaking from the mere thought of lugging around my new analogue gear: a 16U mixer/FX rack, the synths in heavy duty cases, ahh... help sometimes I think I'm nuts doing all this -honestly. But when I turn on the analogue stuff and start dabbling and listening, a subtle smile forces itself upon my face and I know again that I'm doing the right thing for me.

To carlo/seraph:
The "real-analogue route" means just that: starting to build a comprehensive real-analogue setup, from the individual instruments right down to the mixing/summing stage. So, to start out with, I wanted something performance-orientated, meaning: something polyphonic, with a keyboard, patch memory... but still as flexible as possible (the G2 spoiled me Wink ). After much trying out and listening to different contenders, I bought the Alesis Andromeda. I know this synth is highly debated, but I personally think it has a very good analogue tone (just back off those mixer levels and you will hear) and an incredible modulation/triggering matrix which would be unpatchable on the G2. BTW, it's a great noodle maker too Very Happy. And then I have this Prophet5 Rev3.3 -but I'm not so sure if I want to take that one out on the road. It works flawlessly, but it's hitting an age where the CMOS40XX can blow anytime, so it just doesn't feel safe. I'm having an eye on that Moog Voyager too -together with the CV breakout panel, it makes for some heavy patching. Or that swedish Cwejman synth (http://www.cwejman.com/english/index_eng.asp?mode=s1) ...there is so much good stuff. And now even this: http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/other/news.html !!!

From there I will probably branch out to some modular stuff next year. I'm playing a big tour then, and will invest some of that income for this. The new Modcan B series (http://www.modcan.com/page2.html) looks most interesting for my purposes.

For summing I bought a Crest XR-24 rack mixer. It has the same channel specs as the big Crest consoles, so it is a fantastic sounding analogue mixer.

...so that is more or less what my "real-analogue" route is all about.

I agree totally with the post of egw. I'm in no way an "analogue purist". I just try to go with what moves me, which just happens to be analogue stuff. But if I come across some digital gear which satisfies me in the same way, by all means I will go for that too. I'm a musician, and if an instrument "speaks" to me, I will use it.

To get back to the G2: If Clavia ever makes a rackversion of it with the UI (knobs & displays), I might go for that -as a great modular FX box for all the digital-based stuff (delays etc.). I think some here would like such a rack version too. Howard? Wink

Anyway, thanks to all of you and best wishes. And BTW, I'm not out of here -if I may, I still will lurk around and maybe drop a line or two whenever it fits.

all the best,
tim
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seraph
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim
do you know what happened to Swiss analogue synth maker Technosaurus Question they seem extinct Crying or Very sad

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egw
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like the Andromeda too, but I'm surprised that you say you can do things with the modulation matrix that are impossible on a G2. I can't think of anything like that.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
egw wrote:
I like the Andromeda too, but I'm surprised that you say you can do things with the modulation matrix that are impossible on a G2. I can't think of anything like that.


I doubt that you could patch the mod matrix of the Andy (including the CROUTES!), and still retain 16 voices. Actually, because a G2 voice must "reside" on one DSP, and with the impending "outputs per zeropage" bottleneck, I doubt it would be possible even to achieve one voice of the Andros complexity on the G2. Of course, you can always patch part of it -but not everything at once.

Quote:
seraph wrote:

do you know what happened to Swiss analogue synth maker Technosaurus they seem extinct


I was in touch once briefly with someone who was advisor/beta-tester for Technosaurus. And he complained that his suggestions were seldom taken into considerations by the manufacturer due to lack of time. So things may have been a bit flaky there for quite a while.

You must consider that the tiny market for high-grade analogue equipment forces many manufacturers to pursue their endeavours as a "hobby" whilst maintaining a day job. I know this is the case with MOTM/Synthtech, and maybe it is true also for Technosaurus. Eg., the Synthtech site hasn't been properly updated for years and some customers have to wait years (literally) for their orders. This is a tough business for all involved.

But I don't know anything specific.
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jamos



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
the impending "outputs per zeropage" bottleneck,


The what?
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jamos wrote:
Quote:
the impending "outputs per zeropage" bottleneck,


The what?


Sorry for jumping in but I think Tim is talking about the fact that each module output takes about 0.8% of the available zero page memory resource. Meaning that no single slot can use more than 125 outputs.

As far as the Andromeda’s modulation matrix goes, Tim is correct in that duplicating it using G2 modules would eat a lot of DSP. I don’t think he was implying that the Andromeda has superior modulation capabilities. After all, modulation matrixes are simply compromises for synthesisers that are not fully patchable.

Anyway Tim, best of luck with the new gear. I have a friend in Zurich who is also a diehard analogue guy (Moog+Synthesisers.com). He called the other day to complain that he makes this huge effort to remain true to pure analogue, but no one cares.
Obviously some people still do.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We've got an Andromedia A6 forum here too... This isn't a site dedicated to G2s.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
mosc wrote:
We've got an Andromedia A6 forum here too... This isn't a site dedicated to G2s.


Yes -I saw it already. Electro-music.com is just a great site. Thanks, Howard.

You know -in some ways I really miss the G2 already. My dream would be a G2 rack version with the user interface. I'd love that, purely as a superior quad-digital FX unit (delays etc.), sequencer and "all-around problem-solver" for my setup.
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Hyde



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:42 am    Post subject: D2A Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have to put in my 2 cents worth. There are those of us who are 'noiseicians' and use this machine (along with the Micro) to make some TRULY SICK DIGITAL sounds. It's cool for this guy to bail because it doesn't sound like $10,000 worth of and 10,000 lbs. of analogue synth gear. Not everyone tries to make this digital machine sound like something it isn't. Lots of people use it FOR its digitalness and the ability to twist audio into bizarre and seldom heard sonic landscapes. While I've yet to get my G2X to sound as gross as my Micro - I wouldn't trade it for ANYTHING.

ps - glad you got better.

pss - guys, make some more SICK patches and up them. Some of us miss them.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
g2ian wrote:
He called the other day to complain that he makes this huge effort to remain true to pure analogue, but no one cares.
Obviously some people still do.


It depends. In the musical fields I work in (live performance, acoustic instruments), people really do hear the difference of analogue sound generation and respond to it positively. It sounds esoteric, but analogue really blends better with acoustic instruments. I've tried many direct comparisons of D and A in these kinds of situations, out of sheer curiosity, and really found this to be true. Even when patching various analogue-like impurities and non-linearities into the G2, I didn't get the same results. I know this sounds weird and esoteric, and as a person with a sober, scientific mind I have trouble accepting it myself. But the results are obvious.

Anyway -the G2 is great as it is too, and (as mentioned in the post above), I'd love to have a rack-version of it with the controls.
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Roland Kuit



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:52 am    Post subject: Byebye, G2 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for your contributions. And for the interesting links. esp. the modcan looks and sounds very nice indeed! Hope you'll have a wonderfull tour.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Byebye, G2 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

roland kuit wrote:
Hope you'll have a wonderfull tour.


Yes, consider coming to electro-music 2005.

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cebec



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Haha, yes! Hopefully there'll be some 'noisicians' at electro-music 2005, as well...

And now that I can patch a 'virtual' G2 at work, Hyde, my own sick patches will proliferate like bacteria!

shakng2
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cebec wrote:
Haha, yes! Hopefully there'll be some 'noisicians' at electro-music 2005, as well...


I wouldn't bet against it...

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