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External reset and run step one for 4017 based sequencers
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saint gillis



Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Posts: 60
Location: Brussels

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I also found that on allaboutcircuits.com :
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diablojoy



Joined: Sep 07, 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I confirm that I ve just tried to stretch a bit the clock pulse through an ADSR (adding a bit of release) and it works perfectly (no bug on step 1)...
So we need a simple way to stretch the clock on the "reset & run1" circuit, do you think it could be possible with a few discret components or the free Schmitt triggers on the 40106...


you stretched the clock pulse going into the reset and run step one ?
and that fixed it. damn dude thats orsm well done oh and i think i know why that may be the case.
remember we added a leading edge slew to get the clock timing right of the switched clock through the sequential switch to prevent double steps.

That shortened the clock pulse by about 150 microseconds sent to the sympleseq's and therefore also the reset and run step one circuits.

the opposite circuit to that may provide an easy solution then
a trailing edge slew circuit tacked on to the front of the clock input to the reset and run step one will lengthen the clock pulse again the same as you have done by using your ADSR.
Its exactly the same circuit as the leading edge slew just need to swap the direction of the diode and perhaps play with the cap and resistor value to get the right amount of clock pulse length extension as the response is not exactly linear probably have to increase the cap value a bit.
easy enough to check i guess as the board is already drawn up
will try and check next weekend when i can etch another board.

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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmm a mickey mouse pulse stretcher may also work
just 2 sections of 40106 which we have available and a cap and resistor
and if it works would be a very simple change
will look into that as well

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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey saint gillis
maybe I had a bit of a moment of clear thinking while driving home from work on the freeway/carpark it's only 37 klm's but takes an hour not sure
do you have any idea of roughly the amount of time you added to the clock pulse length ?
If it is only a very short time it may be possible we have a very very simple solution.
the slew circuit i did to delay the start of the clock pulse through the
sequential switch to prevent the double stepping at the moment only affects
the start of the pulse however simply by removing the diode it will affect both the leading and trailing edges of the clock pulse
It will still shorten the start of the pulse to avoid the double stepping but it
will also lengthen the end of the pulse hopefully enough to fix the current issue, at least its real easy and worthwhile to check anyway.

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saint gillis



Joined: Apr 21, 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Diablojoy!
I write you on the road really far from the 4017s the capacitors diodes etc Smile
first of all I didnt use (for now) the clock delay cicuit... (remember I made some kludge with caps on the IO outputs), futhermore there is the same bug on the sympleseqs & on the sequential switchs (on step1> after reset runs step2)...
I remember on the oscilloscope to have stretched greatly the clock going into the "reset & run step1" circuit (maybe 3 or 4 times the initial clock pulse)...
But I dont really know what is the ideal lenght, in fact the symplest solutions are worth trying for sure, I m back on friday...
Thanx for your geat help! Very Happy
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saint gillis



Joined: Apr 21, 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Diablojoy!
I m back to experiment, I ve tried some things with the 40106 but I must do something wrong.. tomorrow is another day
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saint gillis



Joined: Apr 21, 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok the input signal in the 40106 was too low... sorry I m really a newbie, now I have some difficulties to find out the good values and positions for the caps and resistors to stretch enough the pulse...
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saint gillis



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Diablo!
It seems to work...

From the beginning I ve choosen to pick up the clock signal that would go into the "reset & run 1" circuit directly from the 4017's pin 14 to be sure to have a good level of signal, using a diode of course..

There was too many parameters, too many possibilities and so much confusion...sorry for that

Finally, when I attenuate the clock signal that's going into the "reset & run1" circuit everything goes fine (for the moment Very Happy ), the values I found for the voltage divider is 220K in serie and 120K to the ground.
It like a dream to see the sequence restarting everytime at its beginnig point! Very Happy
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
From the beginning I ve choosen to pick up the clock signal that would go into the "reset & run 1" circuit directly from the 4017's pin 14 to be sure to have a good level of signal, using a diode of course..

There was too many parameters, too many possibilities and so much confusion...sorry for that

Finally, when I attenuate the clock signal that's going into the "reset & run1" circuit everything goes fine (for the moment ), the values I found for the voltage divider is 220K in serie and 120K to the ground.
It like a dream to see the sequence restarting everytime at its beginnig point!


yeah there is way too many possibilities very hard on the brain trying to keep track of what should happen and when
ahh so you have attenuated the clock signal and that for the moment is now working ... that is hopefully very good news . I had tried adjusting the length on the clock pulse, took it as far as i could but still had no improvement on my build really had me scratching my head.
do you have a scope to check what the voltage level of the clock after the voltage divider is now ? my math is a bit dodgy but with those values i would have thought would make the clock signal a little too low in level.

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saint gillis



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
do you have a scope to check what the voltage level of the clock after the voltage divider is now ?

8V at the top-left edge of the clock pulse
Something interesting to notice : with a very old motorola 4013 (found in an old stock of ICs because I had no more 4013 in stock) the voltage divider had no action, it didn't work (same bug on step 1), with a new chip it worked fine!
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
8V at the top-left edge of the clock pulse

i presume then you have a 12 volt supply ?

Quote:
Something interesting to notice : with a very old motorola 4013 (found in an old stock of ICs because I had no more 4013 in stock) the voltage divider had no action, it didn't work


yeah I have read in another topic recently some 4013 are rather notorious for simply not doing what they are told to , perhaps that is possibly the case here. I hope you gave the offending chip a good talking to.

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saint gillis



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I hope you gave the offending chip a good talking to

Hahah yes I ve spanked it roughly!

I use a 15V supply in fact...
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I use a 15V supply in fact...

hmm this then must be approaching the very lower trigger limit for the cmos , i had thought it would fail to clock reliably below about 10 volts given a 15 volt supply
that is interesting.
Is the module still testing fine now with the lowered level clock ?
I will have to check this out next weekend.

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saint gillis



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes it seems to be fine...

I've also changed the 680n capacitor I ve put between I/O and ground to a 100n, it has much less influence on the clock shape and it still avoids double steps (if someone's interested in a kind of kludge less serious but simpler than building a clock delay..)

After building my sequencer I ve realized it maybe would have been better to use a 9v supply because no need to attenuate the max CV output maybe no need to make a 5V clock level convertion etc etc, anyway the whole stuff is included in a +15/-15 modular system so I would not have made a dedicated supply for the sequencers + the sequential switchs, dividers etc
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emdot_ambient



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This thread is important...but it still makes my head hurt!
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
but it still makes my head hurt!

I think it gives everyone involved a headache
definitely does for me anyway.
still good learning experiance.

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saint gillis



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Your inventivity provided a very clever solution, just collateral dammage to fix...
Did the Moog 960 sequencer start on step 1 after reset?
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Did the Moog 960 sequencer start on step 1 after reset?


Don't know.
I only time i ever saw one was just after they were first released never got to play with one, so i have absolutely no idea. It was a very long time ago and i certainly couldn't have afforded it back then, only started looking at modulars again in the last few years and then only DIY.
I am sure someone here would know but i have never even seen a schematic for it.

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saint gillis



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a video of the module I ve made,
still some little bugs time to time but I ve still not attenuated the clock in the "reset & run1" circuits in the sympleseqs...
Anyway it shows the possibilities I ve decided to include, it does not eveything but enough for me.. Smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ1TwhdsRMs
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

congratulations
ORSM video
and a great example of how 4 very simple sequencers can become something far more powerful.
really brought a smile to my face seeing it all working so well.

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saint gillis



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanx, though I ve cut some very few bugs...
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

perfection is a goal
not a destination Smile

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saint gillis



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:10 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Finally, years after here is an exemple of the many times it has been used :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WOWVqeNu1w As you can see the sequencer is in the music but also the video ! Very Happy
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